Apprenticeship redundancy

Can you make an apprentice redundant?

Didn't find your answer?

This is possibly the wrong forum to be asking this but hey I'm already a member so let's see if anyone can help!

Basically as I understand it, now I work somewhat in the payroll industry, is that apprentices should be protected from redundancy.

Back in 2007 I was made redundant halfway through a hairdressing apprenticeship due to supposed lack of work. I got no redundancy pay as I'd been there less than 2 years. I was able to complete my training but it was unpaid so it was not technically a continuation of my apprenticeship as it was purely training and no paid work. It was also at a salon in London (I'm based in Brighton) so I spent a HUGE chunk of my miniscule savings on train tickets.

I didn't query it at the time as I was a stupid 17 y/old!

Now I have some payroll experience I'm wondering if my then employer actually broke the law (breach of contract?) when he made me redundant back then? And if he did if there is anything I can do about it now? Is there a time limit for such things? Or should I just put it down to experience and move on..?

Many thanks for your help in advance.

Replies (34)

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Worm
By TheLambtonWorm
28th Sep 2016 14:18

I'm no expert - but I think you get get rid of an apprentice at any time, with the obvious discrimination exceptions.

At the end of an apprenticeship, the 'employer' has a choice to employ the apprentice, or let them go.

I could be wrong though.

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Replying to TheLambtonWorm:
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By Anonymous123
28th Sep 2016 15:11

Thank you TheLambtonWorm but I was dismissed part way through my apprenticeship, not let go after it had ended. I've found guidance on several website which states apprentices are protected against redundancies. Would you happen to have a link to any guidance which suggests otherwise?

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By hje
28th Sep 2016 14:21

"You can’t usually make an apprentice redundant simply because you can’t afford to pay them, eg if your company runs out of work. This is because you have a contract to train them.

You should get legal advice if you think you might have to make an apprentice redundant or want to end the apprenticeship early for another reason."

Source: https://www.gov.uk/take-on-an-apprentice/pay-and-conditions-for-apprentices

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Replying to hje:
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By Anonymous123
28th Sep 2016 15:04

Thank you hje, I did find this guidance through googling earlier today. I was hoping for a bit of guidance on what to do next, the fact that it was nearly 10 years ago makes me think I may have missed the window to take it to a tribunal.

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paddle steamer
By DJKL
28th Sep 2016 14:21

Did they make you redundant or merely terminate your employment? Given absence of redundancy pay what documentation do you have that evidences the termination of your employment was redundancy?

Also attached article clearly implies apprentices can be made redundant, as does attached SI, so what evidence do you have that they cannot be made redundant given the legislation addresses the issue of them being made redundant vis a vis completion of their training?

http://traineeships.apprenticeships.org.uk/partners/policy/redundancy.aspx

See also:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1199/made

Caution, I , like most who post on here am not a solicitor and certainly do not often deal with this sort of issue so your question would likely be better answered on a different discussion forum.

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Replying to DJKL:
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By Anonymous123
28th Sep 2016 15:09

Thank you DJKL, your article there does seem to imply they can be made redundant but I've found clear guidance on both the ACAS website and gov.uk which says they are protected against redundancy.

At the time it was sold to me as a redundancy and I'm sure there's paperwork I could dig out to confirm this. I was not fired as there was no gross misconduct and no other reason for terminating my employment other than the fact there were too many apprentices for the size of the business. The dismissal was structured as a redundancy with the statutory notice periods and consultations.

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Stepurhan
By stepurhan
28th Sep 2016 15:17

As for others, caveat that I have no direct legal knowledge.

It must be possible for apprentices to be made redundant. Otherwise a business that was closing down (making everyone redundant) would have to keep open to pay any apprentices they have.

I suspect that the protection is that they must be considered LAST for redundancy. (i.e. that when redundancies have to be made, an apprentice position is the only possible choice. This would protect them from just being chucked out as easy/cheap redundancy choices.). If the redundancy in this case was a reduction in the number of apprentices the company used, then that could well apply. (i.e. the redundancy affected junior level employees, and all junior level employees were apprentices. A non-apprentice junior would have to have gone first had there been one)

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Replying to stepurhan:
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By Anonymous123
28th Sep 2016 15:29

Thanks Stepurhan, I believe you're right in that this is the exception to the rule. Closing businesses can make apprentices redundant but my ex-employer is still trading to this day.
You could well be right with your second point however I feel the guidance I've found is quite clear in saying apprentices can't be made redundant, not that the should be considered last. There were plenty of low level employees that could've got the boot anyway.

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Replying to Anonymous123:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
28th Sep 2016 15:38

Even if not out of time you would also need to be certain any legislation/guidance you now find was extant and operative in 2007, legislation tends not, in the main, to be retrospective, so you would need clarity even if time bar did not apply.

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By johngroganjga
28th Sep 2016 15:20

Yes but however good a claim you might have had in 2007 you are way too late to think about bringing a claim nine years later.

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Replying to johngroganjga:
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By Anonymous123
28th Sep 2016 15:31

Thanks johngroganjga, this is what I feared. Is there a fixed time limit for claims like these? I wish I'd had the brains to look into at the time, it really derailed my life track and cost me a lot of money.

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By johngroganjga
28th Sep 2016 15:21

.

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By sosleepy
28th Sep 2016 16:05

I'm not an expert either, but the fact that he got rid of you means that there's one less hairdresser in the world so he should be congratulated.

He should then be incapacitated so there's a further one less hairdresser in the world.

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Replying to sosleepy:
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By Anonymous123
28th Sep 2016 16:14

Spoken like a person that's received one or two bad haircuts in their life...

Nothing wrong with the profession but the fact that I find accounting, the most notoriously boring profession in the world, more interesting speaks volumes!

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Replying to sosleepy:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
28th Sep 2016 17:34

Just remember ,per Douglas Adams., that the hairdressers et al from the B Ark are the founding citizens of Earth.

Also remember what the Management Consultants (which I suspect is shorthand from DA to include accountants) suggest is done to the forests, people in glass houses......

"Ford licked his lips.
"Yes," he said, "All those dead telephone sanitizers and account executives, you know, down in the hold."
The Captain stared at him. Suddenly he threw back his head and laughed.
"Oh they're not dead," he said, "Good Lord no, no they're frozen. They're going to be revived."
Ford did something he very rarely did. He blinked.
Arthur seemed to come out of a trance.
"You mean you've got a hold full of frozen hairdressers?" he said."

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Replying to DJKL:
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By Anonymous123
29th Sep 2016 09:11

That is so bizarre! I decided to rebuy that '81 series on dvd just the day before yesterday! I used to watch it all the time as a child and was thinking it was a shame I hadn't seen it in so long, how strange :)

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Replying to Anonymous123:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
29th Sep 2016 10:42

Enjoy, the TV series despite the shaky sets and the very limited effects (Zaphod's head) it is miles ahead of the film which I though was really poor.

Over the years I have amassed the books, the first two books on vinyl, the DVD set re the TV series and the complete radio broadcasts box set on CD; this latter is my background of choice when sitting in the study at home writing up client books , especially when I barely need to think about the work and can enjoy the broadcast.

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Replying to DJKL:
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By Anonymous123
29th Sep 2016 13:36

I never bothered seeing the film, I'm not sure why they made it. Anyone who enjoyed the original tv series/books/radio series was never going to enjoy watching a polished version. The shaky camera and dodgy effects were all part of what made it great!

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By Martin B
28th Sep 2016 17:06

So what are you doing these days?

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Replying to Martin B:
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By Anonymous123
29th Sep 2016 09:16

I'm currently halfway through my AAT level 4 and working in a small practice doing a bit of everything, payroll, vat returns, accounts prep for small sole traders. Much more interesting than what my working day used to consist of, trying to hold screaming children down to give them their first, second, third haircuts without drawing any blood.

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Replying to cheekychappy:
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By Anonymous123
29th Sep 2016 13:40

I assumed this was probably the case but it does seem such a shame that he got away with it just because I was too ignorant to look into it at the time. I wasn't the only one to lose their job, we were all stupid enough to just accept it!

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By Wanderer
29th Sep 2016 13:21

Anonymous123 wrote:
Or should I just put it down to experience and move on..?

Yes.

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Replying to Wanderer:
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By Anonymous123
29th Sep 2016 13:41

Looks like I'll have to, thanks for your enlightening input.

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By Emma E
30th Sep 2016 10:26

I'm not sure of the correct answer to your question but I would contact ACAS and ask for their advice which is free and impartial. The phone number is 0300 123 1100.

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Replying to Emma E:
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By Anonymous123
30th Sep 2016 11:59

Thanks Emma E, that was actually the first thing I did. After 15 minutes on hold I lost the will to live and hung up though... I will try them again for sure at some point, at an off-peak time...

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@enanen
By enanen
30th Sep 2016 10:29

did you have a contract and what did the contract say about termination and dismissal?

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Replying to enanen:
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By Anonymous123
30th Sep 2016 12:07

The contract is buried away somewhere but yes I do need to dig it out and review it. But my thinking was that even if the contract says I could be dismissed at any time, it doesn't have much bearing if that goes against the law.

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By JWB
30th Sep 2016 10:42

What are you hoping to gain by pursuing this? Draw a line under it and move on ...

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Replying to JWB:
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By Anonymous123
30th Sep 2016 12:05

I had moved on, many years ago. It's only through doing work for a client that I came across the guidance that got me thinking about it again. Likelihood is nothing will come of it but why shouldn't I question it? If someone wronged you, would you not want to find out if there was anything you could've done about it? That redundancy had a huge effect on my life!

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paddle steamer
By DJKL
30th Sep 2016 10:52

Slightly left field thought

No idea of time limits re intimation post event, and this is re Scotland not England (though I expect similar protection exists down South), but is there any scope to rely on something like:

Age of Legal Capacity (Scotland) Act 1991
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Legal_Capacity_(Scotland)_Act_1991

one interesting quote from the wiki:

"From age 16 a person has full legal capacity to enter into any form of agreement. This subject to protection for younger persons by means of a right (under section 3) while under the age of 21, to have a contract made between the ages of 16 and 18 set aside as a "prejudicial transaction". The test is whether a reasonably prudent adult would not have entered into such a contract, and the person has been prejudiced by entering into that contract. Under section 4 a contract may be approved in advance by a court, in which case it cannot later be reduced. Contracts entered into in the course of the young person's business, or where they misrepresented their age also cannot be reduced."

I suspect not, however when we required to execute a compromise agreement with an employee we were advised by our solicitors to pay to ensure the other party had received legal advice.

Did your former employer do similar, if not you may want to see if there is any scope to open up the time limits under the above sort of legislation?

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Replying to DJKL:
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By Anonymous123
30th Sep 2016 11:52

Thanks so much for your advice DJKL, the legislation does seem somewhat applicable but I feel I may be clutching at straws here, general advices seems to be I've let it run far too long... I have a solicitor acquaintance who didn't specialise in employment law but must have some knowledge from his studies. I think my next step will be to get some advice from him and if he says drop it, I'll drop it.

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By lindsay.tosh
30th Sep 2016 11:13

Like everyone else, I haven't a scooby about the precise law. I do, however, like that you have found your vocation and wish you well. Perhaps your scoundrel of an employer did you a favour but I trust they have had their comeuppance. If not, they will. Move on and be happy; you are the winner.

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Replying to lindsay.tosh:
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By Anonymous123
30th Sep 2016 11:56

Thank you so much for your kind words! He definitely did me a favour by turning me off hairdressing, I could not see myself doing that for the rest of my life. Nearly 10 years on and my friends and family are still asking for free haircuts though!

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By Crash
30th Sep 2016 11:27

I have been waiting years for a question on the forum that I can actually answer better than others........

My wait continues!

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