Rebecca Cave
Tax Writer
Taxwriter Ltd
Columnist
Share this content
0
2131

Have you received late filing SA penalties for directors?

Have you received late filing SA penalties for...

Company directors are not obliged to file an SA return if they have not received a notice to file from HMRC, and there is no tax to pay. However, HMRC have issued penalty notices to directors of two new companies who did not receive a notice to file an SA return for 2014/15 and have not been registered for self-assessment - hence they do not have UTR numbers. The penalties have ben issued with their NI Nos in place of the UTR.

Has anyone else seen similar penalties?

Replies

Please login or register to join the discussion.

03rd Mar 2016 11:08

No, I've not come across this ... yet.

Not a problem if I do, of course. I'll just tell HMRC to swivel.

Thanks (1)
By K81
03rd Mar 2016 11:22

must be in SA

There must be self-assessment records for the penalties to be issued.

It's quite common for the NINO to be shown in place of the UTR if the individual is not self-employed, this doesn't mean that there is no UTR, it just hasn't been shown.

 

I assume that you have checked with HMRC?

Thanks (0)
avatar
By 4nick8
03rd Mar 2016 11:52

UTR is shown on the payslip

Example 5432112345K.

Common practise no notice to file a return received only the penalty notice.

Appeal on the grounds that notice not served. 

Thanks (1)
avatar
By GW
03rd Mar 2016 12:05

Are you certain no notice was issued?

I've not seen penalty notices without UTR but I have had clients who were already in SA before they became company directors and either lost or forgot the notice to file. They then took the incorrect view "because I am paid under PAYE I don't need to file a tax return"

Thanks (0)
avatar
03rd Mar 2016 13:38

The short answer is...

No.

The longer answer is that this won't be the case.  I will stick my neck out and say that HMRC cannot technically or physically issue a £100 late filing penalty if the person does not have a UTR.  As previously mentioned check the reverse of the penalty notice and look at the reference shown on the payslip.

Whether or not a notice to complete a tax return was ever issued by HMRC, is another question.  Clients inevitably will say they didn't get one, HMRC will inevitably say one was issued.

My advice is to appeal and say that the client did not receive a notice and see what happens.

Thanks (0)
avatar
03rd Mar 2016 13:57

We had two yesterday

My feeling is that in each case the client received a notice and omitted to mention it, despite being warned.

Both returns now completed and filed, clients hopefully learned a £100 lesson.

Thanks (0)
avatar
03rd Mar 2016 15:13

Notice to file

On the balance of probability, I do not believe HMRC physically send a notice to file to everyone issued with a self assessment return. HMRC's own records however will indicate otherwise therefore it will be a difficult task in proving this - Tribunals seem to give weight to HMRC's dubious IT systems and some outdated concepts - just because a letter is not returned to HMRC is not proof of it's delivery.

HMRC does seem to be registering directors for SA from their own initiative - can only be from Companies House filings but I am not at all sure how this happens without a NI number - there was no payroll being run in the cases I have encountered.

 

 

  

Thanks (0)
avatar
03rd Mar 2016 18:34

rarely seen these days but

are they definitely penalties for a late return and not failure to notify by 5 October (not charged if the return is then filed on time)?

Thanks (0)
avatar
07th Mar 2016 11:54

Other ways to pay

Very similar to 4nick8 who sounds like a lucky person!  Tax reference actually provided under 'Other ways to pay' as part of the payment reference.  Reference was bottom right hand corner of the Notice. 

Thanks (0)
avatar
By CBPTS
08th Mar 2016 14:14

Directors' Tax Returns

These are failure to notify penalties:

Refer to HMRC web site: www etc./who-must-send-a tax -return:

"you were a company director - unless it was for a non-profit organisation (e g a charity) and you didn't get any pay or benefits, like a company car"

On a lighter note one of the other reasons to send a tax return is;

"you had income from abroad that you need to pay tax on"

Years ago as a trainee tax officer I was shown a 'customer's' completed form 1 where this section of the form had entered in  'no broads owned'. (the old ones are the best)

 

Thanks (0)
avatar
08th Mar 2016 14:26

Are you sure?

CBPTS wrote:

These are failure to notify penalties:

Refer to HMRC web site: www etc./who-must-send-a tax -return:

"you were a company director - unless it was for a non-profit organisation (e g a charity) and you didn't get any pay or benefits, like a company car"

On a lighter note one of the other reasons to send a tax return is;

"you had income from abroad that you need to pay tax on"

Years ago as a trainee tax officer I was shown a 'customer's' completed form 1 where this section of the form had entered in  'no broads owned'. (the old ones are the best)

 

Never actually seen one or heard of one being issued before, ever!

 

Thanks (0)
08th Mar 2016 14:38

Altogether now

CBPTS wrote:
Refer to HMRC web site: www etc./who-must-send-a tax -return:

"you were a company director - unless it was for a non-profit organisation (e g a charity) and you didn't get any pay or benefits, like a company car"

HMRC guidance is not law.
Thanks (0)
08th Mar 2016 14:49

I would love to see

CBPTS wrote:

These are failure to notify penalties:

Refer to HMRC web site: www etc./who-must-send-a tax -return:

"you were a company director - unless it was for a non-profit organisation (e g a charity) and you didn't get any pay or benefits, like a company car"

I would love to see a copy of one of these that HMRC have issued based on their own made up laws, if you have one it would be appreciated if you could post it, obviously with any personal info redacted.

Thanks (0)
By chatman
08th Mar 2016 14:29

s.7 TMA 1970 and EM4551

s7 TMA 1970 and EM4551 say otherwise

Thanks (0)
08th Mar 2016 15:01

This old chestnut again. Has it been two weeks already?

Appeal on the basis that there is no legislative requirement to register. Job done.

Thanks (0)
Share this content