Legal services

Why are accountants not offering legal services?

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I know its not a new concept, however our practice is seriously considering marketing legal services to our clients. We believe offering our clients a 'one-stop-shop' service is an attractive proposition and wonder whether anyone have experience or views on this idea?  

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Jennifer Adams
By Jennifer Adams
22nd Jul 2016 13:10

This is probably not exactly what you mean but you are no doubt aware that accountants can be authorised to deal with probate matters. The compulsory SWAT course costs approx £1000+ (I'm taking into account exam fees, travel to exam room, poss staying overnight etc) but the bit that hurts is the annual fee also of £1000. I met an accountant on the train back from Accountex who said he had passed the exam but was put off actually giving the service by the annual fee cost.

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Replying to Jennifer Adams:
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By pacta
22nd Jul 2016 14:37

Seems like this thread is nicking my idea. [***] off it.

To reply directly to the above don't do the SWAT course - please! Spend the money wisely and do STEP.

Re the annual fees I too am at the point of "waiting" to invest. It is a high price. But that said, one probate job, even the simplest, would probably easily cover the fee.

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Replying to pacta:
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By D.
22nd Jul 2016 15:18

From October 2014 accountants have been authorised to handle probate work, but, only if the Will is uncontested. Contested Wills must still be handled by a solicitor. The handle uncontested Wills (probably about 99% of all Wills), no extra qualifications or SWAT or STEPS courses or registration is required. It is, however, necessary to inform your PI insurers.

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Replying to D.:
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By pacta
22nd Jul 2016 15:29

If, however, you are regulated by the ICAEW an additional test and a licence fee are required which is why SWAT are offering the course and I'm recommending STEP instead.

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By D.
22nd Jul 2016 15:45

So the law changes but ICAEW see it as an excuse to extract extra fees from it's members. What a surprise. Charging someone a fee to allow them to do something that the law says they can do anyway sounds highly unprofessional to me.

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Replying to D.:
Out of my mind
By runningmate
23rd Jul 2016 09:07

D. wrote:

So the law changes but ICAEW see it as an excuse to extract extra fees from it's members. What a surprise. Charging someone a fee to allow them to do something that the law says they can do anyway sounds highly unprofessional to me.

But you can only do probate work if you have a licence to do it from an approved regulator or a licensing authority (such as ICAEW).

It's not something that you are allowed to do simply because you are an accountant.

To get the necessary licence from ICAEW you have to jump through some hoops.
RM

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Replying to runningmate:
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By D.
23rd Jul 2016 10:08

runningmate wrote:

It's not something that you are allowed to do simply because you are an accountant.

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RM

You are wrong. There is no restriction whatsoever on who can be named as executor of a Will, and, no restriction on who can be paid for carrying out the work providing that the Will makes it clear that the executor be allowed to charge "reasonable fees" for doing so.

That is the law, and has been the law for several hundred years. The ONLY restriction is that an executor must be over the age of 18. Depending on the size of the estate it may be necessary to obtain a Grant of Probate, which is a formality easily dealt with in 15 minutes at the local probate office.

There is no restriction on who can obtain a grant of probate (other than age etc) and no professional requirements. If you are named as an executor then you can act without anyone else's permission.

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Replying to D.:
Out of my mind
By runningmate
23rd Jul 2016 10:29

D. wrote:

runningmate wrote:

It's not something that you are allowed to do simply because you are an accountant.

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RM

You are wrong. There is no restriction whatsoever on who can be named as executor of a Will, and, no restriction on who can be paid for carrying out the work providing that the Will makes it clear that the executor be allowed to charge "reasonable fees" for doing so.

That is the law, and has been the law for several hundred years. The ONLY restriction is that an executor must be over the age of 18. Depending on the size of the estate it may be necessary to obtain a Grant of Probate, which is a formality easily dealt with in 15 minutes at the local probate office.

There is no restriction on who can obtain a grant of probate (other than age etc) and no professional requirements. If you are named as an executor then you can act without anyone else's permission.

The position of a person who is named in the Will as an executor, and where there is a clause permitting an executor to charge fees for the work, is different from the position of a person who is not named in the Will but who is instructed by the executors to assist in obtaining probate, completing relevant IHT forms & tax returns, realising the assets, paying the taxes & other liabilities of the estate, & distributing the net proceeds in accordance with the terms of the Will.

I am referring to the latter, which is a reserved activity under Legal Services Act 2007.
RM

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Replying to runningmate:
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By D.
23rd Jul 2016 14:31

If you are not named as executor the chances of being approached to carry out probate work by someone wandering in off the street are about the same as winning the lottery.

The only time executors approach a solicitor or accountant to do so is where the Will is being contested, and an accountant is NOT qualified to deal with that situation.

Paying ICAEW an annual fee on the off chance that someone might just want to pay you to carry out probate work is a total waste of money. Indeed you would be better putting your money on a three legged donkey to win the Grand National.

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By User deleted
22nd Jul 2016 13:17

Given that the accountancy market is quite crowded out there with all sorts of 'accountants' competing on price, it makes sense to differentiate oneself from the crowd. In that sense it's indeed a good step forward. However, as I understand you could offer only non-reserved legal activities (services), which may need authorisation from the professional body concerned. Then there are impediments like being competent, indemnity insurance etc. Nevertheless, overall a good idea.

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Replying to User deleted:
Out of my mind
By runningmate
23rd Jul 2016 09:15

taxguru wrote:

Given that the accountancy market is quite crowded out there with all sorts of 'accountants' competing on price, it makes sense to differentiate oneself from the crowd. In that sense it's indeed a good step forward. However, as I understand you could offer only non-reserved legal activities (services), which may need authorisation from the professional body concerned. Then there are impediments like being competent, indemnity insurance etc. Nevertheless, overall a good idea.

Probate is a reserved legal service - but accountants with the appropriate probate licence can now offer probate services to the public.
RM

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Replying to runningmate:
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By User deleted
23rd Jul 2016 09:35

runningmate wrote:

taxguru wrote:

Given that the accountancy market is quite crowded out there with all sorts of 'accountants' competing on price, it makes sense to differentiate oneself from the crowd. In that sense it's indeed a good step forward. However, as I understand you could offer only non-reserved legal activities (services), which may need authorisation from the professional body concerned. Then there are impediments like being competent, indemnity insurance etc. Nevertheless, overall a good idea.

Probate is a reserved legal service - but accountants with the appropriate probate licence can now offer probate services to the public.
RM

That's via ICAEW. I think they have also made an application to LSB for providing legal services in tax with 'right of audience' etc

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By Vaughan Blake1
22nd Jul 2016 13:46

Combine IHT planning, will writing and probate work and you can make a good niche practice. Just don't expect any referrals from solicitors ever again!

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By In a Daze
22nd Jul 2016 14:54

How can we offer legal services we are not Solicitors or Barristers

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Replying to In a Daze:
By Ruddles
22nd Jul 2016 15:30

Well, there is at least one know-it-all user of this site who would have us believe that he is both an accountant and a barrister. But then again, he is somewhat prone to telling fibs.

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Replying to Ruddles:
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By pacta
22nd Jul 2016 15:31

Ruddles wrote:

Well, there is at least one know-it-all user of this site who would have us believe that he is both an accountant and a barrister. But then again, he is somewhat prone to telling fibs.

I am confused as to which know-it-all you refer. There's so many :)

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Replying to pacta:
By Ruddles
22nd Jul 2016 15:38

Oh, I think most people here will know to whom I'm referring. Hint - he tends to Drag on and Drag on.

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Replying to Ruddles:
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By pacta
22nd Jul 2016 15:41

cheekychappy?

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Replying to pacta:
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By pacta
22nd Jul 2016 15:42

No, Peter Saxton?

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Replying to pacta:
By Ruddles
22nd Jul 2016 15:56

My hint was obviously far too subtle - remove the spaces after the capitalised words :)

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By johngroganjga
22nd Jul 2016 15:45

I am reading the OP's question a different way from everyone else. I am assuming he is thinking of teaming up with, or employing, solicitors to form a multi-disciplinary practice.

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By Scriptic
22nd Jul 2016 15:47

I would suggest concentrating on such issues as employment and the law of contract.

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Out of my mind
By runningmate
23rd Jul 2016 08:56

Why not consider offering tax advice - that's a legal service.
RM

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Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
23rd Jul 2016 11:35

For me with added services you can learn a lot from the software companies and their bolt on apps.

As an accountant and trusted advisors we are the first point of contact for clients with business issues that are not accountancy related.

Many clients don't actually have a solicitor.

For this is I have built up a circle of trusted advisors around me, who I pass this type of thing onto. In return my clients are ensured a favourable rate and preferential service.

I have teamed up with a few solicitors, insurance broker, IFA, It Support, Property Agent, web designer etc and we all cross refer business and this is best source of new work, and it keeps all the money within the circle so to speak, and strengthens your bond with your clients, as you are a one stop shop for all their needs.

I think trying to do,it all in house would difficult unless there was a lot of scale to it as the cost of maintaining the compliance side of things would make it not work for odd one off jobs.

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By law man
25th Jul 2016 09:49

A view from the other side:

(1) Tax advice: used to be given by solicitors rather than accountants. Fair dos to the accountants.

(2) Probate: subject to the constraints mentioned; but be very sure that you have the expertise and experience to do it properly.

(3) Other matters: "high street" solicitors tend to be under pressure to get work and on the fees. Evaluate whether you can make money out of it.

(4) Usually solicitors and accountants have an informal arrangement for referral of work. If you compete for solicitors' work, you will be unlikely to get referrals.

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By [email protected]
26th Jul 2016 11:27

Applying for probate on behalf of your cient is a reserved activity, however, assisting a client to apply 'in their own name' as opposed to solicitors name is not.

I have been involved in 'cross over' activities with legal firms for almost 20 years.

If you want to get into legal services but are daunted by 'hoops' you may have to jump through then why not join a legal firm as an 'advocate' which is a bit like an introducer but you control how your client is handled but the legal firm takes all responsibility for advice and service.
If you want details of the firm I use get in touch.
As regards upsetting solicitors my view is that generally they provide poor client service, are expensive and take a long time to sort matters. However, I have a few solicitors who use me for estate accounts along with other 'number crunching' matters.

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By [email protected]
26th Jul 2016 11:28

Applying for probate on behalf of your cient is a reserved activity, however, assisting a client to apply 'in their own name' as opposed to solicitors name is not.

I have been involved in 'cross over' activities with legal firms for almost 20 years.

If you want to get into legal services but are daunted by 'hoops' you may have to jump through then why not join a legal firm as an 'advocate' which is a bit like an introducer but you control how your client is handled but the legal firm takes all responsibility for advice and service.
If you want details of the firm I use get in touch.
As regards upsetting solicitors my view is that generally they provide poor client service, are expensive and take a long time to sort matters. However, I have a few solicitors who use me for estate accounts along with other 'number crunching' matters.

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By douglasaitken
26th Jul 2016 14:29

Peak Performance network has a turnkey legal services solution for accountants which is working very well. For more information, simply email [email protected]

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By pacta
26th Jul 2016 16:02

Doug

That domain just redirects me to Salesforce.

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By douglasaitken
26th Jul 2016 17:15

Hi, happy for you to email direct on [email protected]

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By pacta
26th Jul 2016 18:32

No I wanted to check you out first. =P

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