MTD - What about the others?

MTD - What happens to those no self-employed, non landlord clients

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Can anyone tell me what the proposals are for those clients who are not self-employed or landlords under MTD.  I have read much about the two sets of taxpayers, but very little about clients who have pension income, bank/building society interest and dividends or other investment income.

Will they enter MTD from April 2018, like those self-employed and landlards who have a turnover of over the VAT threshold, or wil they join the system when those with turnovers between £10,000 and the VAT threshold do on 6 April 2019?

Or, as a third option, will they along with those self-employed and landloards who have turnover of below £10,000 just have to file a return, albeit not a Self Assessment Return as such, once a year at some point after the end of the tax year?

When will the Self Assessment Tax Return in its current form cease to be issued?

 

Replies (13)

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By bernard michael
20th Apr 2017 16:30

And so the questions keep coming.
Perhaps they'll drop MTD as part of the election manifesto

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By Paul D Utherone
20th Apr 2017 16:54

Presumably HMRC are expecting a lot to be automaticaly fed by data from employers, pension payers, banks, etc., so that one day anyone with only non self emp / partnership / property income sources will just login and confirm their return completed by HMRC from other data feeds.

Wait, was that a squadron of porkers just flew past my window!?

Thanks (1)
RLI
By lionofludesch
20th Apr 2017 18:17

The thing is - HMRC will have spent a big wedge on this.

They're unlikely to write it off when all the future costs lie with the taxpayers.

I'm not against MTD per se - despite my frequent scathing comments - I just think it shouldn't be mandatory. Self Assessment isn't mandatory - most returns are submitted online because there are advantages. If MTD was so good, taxpayers would use it anyway. But the Government's line is that "MTD is good for you so we're going to make you use it".

I actually find claims that taxpayers want to use digital services because 99%+ of VAT returns and RTI are submitted online as deeply, deeply insulting to the electorate's intelligence.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By bernard michael
21st Apr 2017 09:29

Quote:

The thing is - HMRC will have spent a big wedge on this.

They're unlikely to write it off when all the future costs lie with the taxpayers.

I'm not against MTD per se - despite my frequent scathing comments - I just think it shouldn't be mandatory. Self Assessment isn't mandatory - most returns are submitted online because there are advantages. If MTD was so good, taxpayers would use it anyway. But the Government's line is that "MTD is good for you so we're going to make you use it".

I actually find claims that taxpayers want to use digital services because 99%+ of VAT returns and RTI are submitted online as deeply, deeply insulting to the electorate's intelligence.


Doe that comment include those who vote for Corbyn's version of a fairer Britain ?
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Tornado
By Tornado
20th Apr 2017 22:57

I think the idea is that eventually everyone, (5 million businesses and about 45 million others) will effectively be required to log into their Personal and Business Accounts each year, check the information shown in those accounts and add or amend information as necessary and then certify that the information is correct.

We know that those in business will be required to make quarterly returns and at least one other final return through their Business Tax Accounts but the other 45 or so million people will also have to declare all income to HMRC and certify their declaration. The Business and Personal Tax Accounts will continually calculate tax liabilities for everyone and will replace the Self-Assessment Tax Return.

This will effectively be like Tax Returns for everyone so those in employment, for example, will be forced to declare all income (casual, e-bay, home selling parties, tips, capital gains, etc) whereas at the moment a lot of people who are not in the self-assessment system do not declare other taxable income like this.

So what we are looking at is the end of the Tax Returns for 11 million people (plus businesses) and the introduction of Tax Returns for 45 million people (plus businesses)

I think it is all academic at the moment as MTD is a long way off any chance of working as envisaged. It is all far too complex.

This seems to be part of the Digitisation of Government plan where the Government intend to deal with all of us through online technology in respect of all areas of Government from Council Tax to Universal Credit, from Company Tax to Child Tax Credits, from birth to death.

Big Brother and all that.

Thanks (1)
Replying to Tornado:
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By bernard michael
21st Apr 2017 09:32

Quote:

I think the idea is that eventually everyone, (5 million businesses and about 45 million others) will effectively be required to log into their Personal and Business Accounts each year, check the information shown in those accounts and add or amend information as necessary and then certify that the information is correct.

We know that those in business will be required to make quarterly returns and at least one other final return through their Business Tax Accounts but the other 45 or so million people will also have to declare all income to HMRC and certify their declaration. The Business and Personal Tax Accounts will continually calculate tax liabilities for everyone and will replace the Self-Assessment Tax Return.

This will effectively be like Tax Returns for everyone so those in employment, for example, will be forced to declare all income (casual, e-bay, home selling parties, tips, capital gains, etc) whereas at the moment a lot of people who are not in the self-assessment system do not declare other taxable income like this.

So what we are looking at is the end of the Tax Returns for 11 million people (plus businesses) and the introduction of Tax Returns for 45 million people (plus businesses)

I think it is all academic at the moment as MTD is a long way off any chance of working as envisaged. It is all far too complex.

This seems to be part of the Digitisation of Government plan where the Government intend to deal with all of us through online technology in respect of all areas of Government from Council Tax to Universal Credit, from Company Tax to Child Tax Credits, from birth to death.

Big Brother and all that.

For the above reasons MTD will lead to a massive increase in the Black Economy until cash is abolished

Thanks (1)
Replying to bernard michael:
RLI
By lionofludesch
21st Apr 2017 09:37

Most transactions are still in cash.

Because we've not thought of anything better for small transactions.

We couldn't even abolish cheques. That was supposed to be happening in 2016 and the banks backed off.

We're a long way from cash becoming obsolete.

Thanks (1)
Replying to bernard michael:
Tornado
By Tornado
21st Apr 2017 09:45

I did note that out and about over the Easter Weekend, at many of the popular public visitor locations, there were a significant number of both permanent and temporary traders who had signs up 'Cash Only'

This is more likely to be due to the high cost of card and banking more than anything else but cash is a much more convenient way to do business for many people.

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Replying to Tornado:
RLI
By lionofludesch
21st Apr 2017 10:07

It's not just business, is it? It's all the other domestic transactions.

How do I do the shopping for my elderly mum?

Does she have a card with some sort of credit on it? How much is on it? Will I need a card reader to find out? Do I have to go and fetch her card before I go shopping? Which means two trips. Or do I buy her Mr Kiplings and get paid when I take them? In which case, I'll need to carry a card reader. Which is bulkier than carrying cash.

Is that better than what we have now?

No.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
22nd Apr 2017 18:11

She should do what my Dad did, send me away to get whatever, once the bills mounted up enough he wrote me a cheque.

Whilst he did use a credit card he never in his life withdrew cash from a machine, once a month he popped down to his branch of Bank of Scotland, presented a cheque and they gave him the cash.

Then each month he checked his card/bank statements received by post and if the balance started to get a bit toppy invested the excess by sending a cheque to wherever he wanted to earn virtually nothing on his savings.

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By Dowland
21st Apr 2017 09:36

Thank you to all that have replied thus far.

I realise that MTD is some way off but am anxious to advise clients of what is coming down the line.

Does anyone know catergorically when the Self Assessment Tax Return will cease to apply and will be replaced by a DTA, PTA or BTA, especially for those clients outlined in my original post?

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Replying to Dowland:
Tornado
By Tornado
21st Apr 2017 09:50

The original Making Tax Digital plan was that the last Self Assessment Tax Return would be for the year ended 5th April 2020 but that is extremely unlikely to be the case now.

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Replying to Dowland:
RLI
By lionofludesch
21st Apr 2017 09:50

No one can say anything "categorically" at present.

Your best option is to say "Present plans are ..." and make withering comments about the Government, neatly side-stepping any responsibility.

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