Over 60 - is it a waste of time applying for full time job.

Over 60 - is it a waste of time applying for...

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Have been a freelance accountant for 10 years now, a fellow of the Institute of Financial Accounts si, with over 50 clients, £15000 gross income, no more than 12 hours per week from home. Yes I have a lot of spare time at age 61. However my income has fallen during the past year and little in the way of new enquiries. Things are tight and my wife has school job, also income cut.

I see a full time job in town centre, hopefully walking distance salary not good £20-£25000. I like their view on work/home life balance, as I know there are plenty of companies out there who dont appreciate this at all.  however all the ads I see are through agencies and ever since Iwas 45 I never got even an interview through one of these.  I also have to consider  that I intend to keep my clients for another 14 years to supplement my poor pension prospects after 65, which I wont get if I take an outside job, I would lose most of my clients. This particular job is with a firm of accountants and you would think I would fit their requirements.  All I ever get from agencies is an automated response and from my experience the worst age discriminators ever.

Personally I think I would be wasting my time, too old and some are even finished at 50. Working perhaps 37 hours for an extra £6000 or so does not make sense and only another 3-4 years before pension. I do feel sorry for my wife and kids as we are always struggling financially. The job market these days is tough, at least 20 applying for every job. Ithought by now I should have reached £25000 turnover, but not so and it gets me down. By the way I put a big colour ad in YP last year - no responses at all gone back to small advert in local newspaper as that is barely what Icanafford now.

Anyone else had this quandary? A feeling that Iam not pulling my weight so to speak.

Replies (19)

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the sea otter
By memyself-eye
25th May 2011 16:35

Your income is low

at only an average of £300 per client?

I managed to strike a balance with part time employed work (for a charity) 2 days a week as well as running my own practice, but the practice income is much larger with far fewer clients. The employed work has in the past been beneficial in finding new clients although that has now ceased so I'll be re-assessing my strategy going forward (or even backward!) 

I take your point about the ageism thing though, fortunately I have three (small) bank pensions coming when I reach 60 in 3 years. 

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By DazedByTheLight
25th May 2011 16:43

.

All I ever get from agencies is an automated response and from my experience the worst age discriminators ever.

 

I agree, in my opinion employment agencies cause a huge negative effect upon our industry through their power to filter candidates without due process or accountability. There are a few firms who advertise directly however and I would suggest keeping a sharp eye out on local media and getting the web addresses for as many local employers as you can to check for vacancies.

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By Steve Holloway
25th May 2011 16:53

I agree that your income is low for that number of clients ....

 and I am pretty cheap! If they value you perhaps you could increase your fees? If you search on here you will find lots of guidance on cost effective marketing. If you are good at it and the fees are right, I think trying to grow what you have would be better than getting a full time job. I have a client who is an FCA and aged 60- he has been scratching around for 10 years going from contract to contract as no-one wants to offer him a perm role.

As for going on until 75 ... well you have my admiration. I am 44 and I think I will have had my fill come 60. I will then get a job at Sainsburys pushing the trolleys around for a few years!

 

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By gilbertdeclare
25th May 2011 17:14

All is not lost.

1.  I agree with your comments. 
Most  mature accountants  find it impossible  to get   paid employments.  But you might be able to get a part-time  job.  Try Gumtree - they often list part time jobs  

2.   I  notice that you are only charging £300 per head on average  for your  clients  -is that sufficient?

3.  Try acting as a sub contractor for a  local Chartered Accountant - but make sure you get a good hourly  rate  and  more importantly  that it is reviewed  at least on an annual basis.  You should  receive  about  1/3  of what  they  charge out on an hourly  basis. But make sure  that  they are charging at market rate.  Make  a direct approach to them.

4.  Forget  Yellow Pages -who reads that these days. The local paper is also a waste of time.    Ask  your clients  to recommend   you  to people who they know.

5.  Do some networking -even if its only  in the local pub.  I  know of one accountant  in  London W1   who got a few clients that way. Get  your  wife  (and children)   to help.   I know  of another accountant who got a lot of lady clients  because  he was active   in the Conservative Party and went  to a lot of their events. Get to meet other professionals who  might recommend you to their  contacts.

 

   

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By gilbertdeclare
25th May 2011 17:14

All is not lost.

1.  I agree with your comments. 
Most  mature accountants  find it impossible  to get   paid employments.  But you might be able to get a part-time  job.  Try Gumtree - they often list part time jobs  

2.   I  notice that you are only charging £300 per head on average  for your  clients  -is that sufficient?

3.  Try acting as a sub contractor for a  local Chartered Accountant - but make sure you get a good hourly  rate  and  more importantly  that it is reviewed  at least on an annual basis.  You should  receive  about  1/3  of what  they  charge out on an hourly  basis. But make sure  that  they are charging at market rate.  Make  a direct approach to them.

4.  Forget  Yellow Pages -who reads that these days. The local paper is also a waste of time.    Ask  your clients  to recommend   you  to people who they know.

5.  Do some networking -even if its only  in the local pub.  I  know of one accountant  in  London W1   who got a few clients that way. Get  your  wife  (and children)   to help.   I know  of another accountant who got a lot of lady clients  because  he was active   in the Conservative Party and went  to a lot of their events. Get to meet other professionals who  might recommend you to their  contacts.

 

   

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By chatman
25th May 2011 17:44

I agree with expanding your current client base, but forget Yell

There is lots of advice on AWeb Any Answers about marketing far more cheaply than Yellow Pages and more effectively than local papers.  I would also think about pricing with new clients as your fees sound low.

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By frustratedwithhmrc
25th May 2011 18:48

Have you thought about sub-contracting the financial aspects of

Most probate work is dull time consuming stuff undertaken by solicitors by their clerks. Although there are legal aspects to it, the vast majority is tedious paperwork. Most solicitors I know deal with this as their bread and butter, but if they could outsource the tedious stuff while keeping the good stuff (legal preparations, etc.) then I think you have a win-win.

I suspect that handling the financial aspects of a dozen probate cases at anyone time would be a far more useful and challenging use of your time.

It would mean learning the ropes (obviously), but you seem to have sufficient time available and there are plenty of "DIY Probate" books available in your local library. Then put together a brief summary of your "Probate Support" package and then discuss this with your local solicitors.

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By TonyUK
25th May 2011 18:57

Fees too Low

Ok, I admit I am somehat weak putting up my fees, for example a self employed person with turnover of £20000-£30000 I charge just £200. I should charge more for those with business bank accounts, and for Ltd company another £100 on top of that.  I have not changed these since 2008 so I think I need to do so and tell the clients.

The general consensus is that I should carry on, good that encourages me.

I do like the Sainsbury comment!

 

 

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By bigdave1971
25th May 2011 20:33

Low fees

I know this wasn't the point of your question but as others have said, your fees seem very low.

You mentioned about charging small businesses £200. If half your clients (25) were in that category then you could probably increase those fees to £300. You may get say 5 leaving but that would leave 20 clients paying £6,000 in total rather than 25 clients paying £5,000. You would get £1,000 extra income at the same time as doing 5 less accounts/tax returns each year (20% less work).

If you did a similar exercise with the other 25 clients who are paying about £10,000 between them you may get another £2,000 of fees for less work.

I know my figures are based on guesswork and others would be inclined to increase the fees more but it wouldn't take much to increase your fees to the lower end of the payscale you were considering for employment ... and for many less hours per week.

Dave

 

 

 

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By MarionMorrison
25th May 2011 20:38

A bit brutal Tony, but

Problem is that ageism is not confined to employers, it's a function of ordinary people.  They think that anyone over the age of 50 is senile, dull and slow.  That attitude is likely to be something that impedes your client growth and might even influence the judgement of existing clients in commending others to you.  I wouldn't mind betting that some of your reluctance to push up prices is behind a reluctance to have people decide to move on.  You have more of a vested interest in client retention than the average.

Now this is not how things should be.  I'm mid-50's myself and starting to plan, but I know the virtues of wrinklies because they often know what they're doing.  My tax guy is 66 and he knows his stuff, because he comes from the Revenue and from an era when it was staffed by people who knew how many buns made five.  I dread having to replace him.

And you might think the Sainsburys comment is a joke, but it might suit - well maybe not trolley-boy.  Big employers often have a greater respect for experience than smaller ones.

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By Richard Willis
26th May 2011 08:06

Another brutal truism?

I am commercial, rather than practice, accountant and was made redundant in Oct 2008 at the age of 55.  I was unemployed for 9 months and found most of the agencies to be pretty useless.  However a couple of the specialist ones did their very best for me and eventually one of them found me a permanent post that SHOULD have done me up to retirement.  Unfortunately I found the company to be insolvent when I had sorted out the mess!

I have since survived on a mix of temp posts and insurance payments (HSBC policy - MARVELOUS!) but the point I wish to make is that at all times I have been both honest and POSITIVE!  If your disenchantment about your situation is being conveyed to the agencies they will not look on you as a good candidate.  I know from experience that it is difficult but if you doubt yourself how can you expect potential employers to value your potential?

I now have a permanent post, not well paid but adequate for our needs, with a company that values my experience and maturity.

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By Ken Howard
26th May 2011 11:01

Concentrate on your practice, not employment
Are you really going to be able to getting back to working 35 hours per week for someone else after you've been self employed for a decade and working so few hours? I don't think so. Especially if it means giving up your client base that took you ten years to build. In my experience, once self employed, you really can't go back to being a wage slave.

You have to build your practice. There was once a time when Yellow pages and local papers were the way to get new business. Times have changed and that means moving on. Improve your website to modern requirements/standards (you do have a website I hope!). Become an "accredited accountant" of one of the main accounting softwares (i.e Quickbooks, Kashflow, Freeagent, Xero etc) so you appear on their "accountants directory" so users of that software can find a local accountant experienced in using it - a surprisingly good way of driving new clients (but don't do it with Sage - you need to be the only local firm or at least only one of a handful whereas you find Sage searches turn up dozens!). Join business fora and start answering tax/accounts questions posed by others - it gets your name known and you'll pick up the occasional client. Bite the bullet and embrace social networking, i.e. twitter, linkedin, facebook etc - it does work if you "buy-in" to how it works. Instead of sitting around doing nothing, use your time more constructively to teach yourself about the internet, social networking, online accounting, etc.

How many new clients are you getting each year from existing client referrals? With 50 clients, you should be looking at 5-10 per year. If you're not getting them, then you're doing something wrong. You're either giving the clients the wrong impression (i.e. that you don't want new clients), or they're not happy enough with you to recommend you. If the latter, try to improve your game and aim for client delight rather than mere client satisfaction.

As others have said, your fees are ridiculously low unless you're only spending a handful of hours on each client per year. Why havn't you put your fees up for three years? Are you afraid of them leaving you? If you do a good job, they won't because they won't get cheaper elsewhere (or not cheap enough to risk giving up good service). No-one who is generally happy with you is going to change accountants because you put your fees up from £300 to £350!

I think you have to adopt a positive approach. You have 50 long standing clients. A lot of newly established sole practitioners would kill for that kind of start (I know I would have done!). So why not regard 2011 as a new start. Even with the recession, there are still plenty of new businesses starting up and people starting self employment - mostly small scale so they're your ideal target client! I'm sure you've been giving advice to new business start ups for the last 10 years and you're bound to have seen what works for some of your clients, so use it to your advantage. Re-launch yourself and get out there and get marketing.

Whatever you do, don't just assume that because of the recession, there's no-one out there, no-one's buying etc. That's garbage. The vast majority of people still have jobs. The vast majority of businesses are still in business - most are still showing increases in turnover and profits. Six months ago, I gave a kick up the [***] to one of my clients who had stopped advertising "because no-one's buying" and were running down their stocks in their shop. They couldn't see they were killing their own business. I gave them a real good talking to (surprised myself actually) because they were so negative and demotivated. They started a new advertising campaign (local radio and internet rather than papers and yellow pages), bought a load of new stock, refurbished and brightened their shop, increased opening hours, and have just had their best quarterly results EVER - yes, even better than the height of the boom!

So come on, pick yourself up, get out there, talk to people, re-engage with your clients - why not have extra meetings and phone calls with clients without charging them instead of the usual once a year query session - talk about things other than missing cheque stubs - talk about their business, talk about your business, talk about football or golf, or the weather - just whatever it takes to make them see you in a different light and you may get more business from them, or they may refer you to their friends etc - or at the very worst, you've been out of the house for a few hours doing something different.

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By Nevill
26th May 2011 11:05

Life after 60

When I was over 60 Hays found me some temp work and also got me interviews for permanent jobs with both Accountants and companies. Do not write off agencies. There is also an agency called Mature Accountants who also found me a temp job. In the end Hays asked me if I would be prepared to work on a self employed basis for at least one of their clients, possibly two. I did indeed end up at one of their clients on a self employed basis and aquired another client via one of their staff. There is life after 60 !

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By TonyUK
26th May 2011 15:30

Just had 2 new clients today!

Thanks Ken for your lengthly reply.

Just had a husband and wife come from another too expensive accountant(£1000, my fee £450),  too sign up on 6th June. Word  of mouth too, so I feel better already.

Also putting up my fees to selected clients from now by around £25 still not enough but a start. I advise new clients I usually review my fee every 3 years, subject to their turnover not changing drastically. I have even not done that though, now in future I have to stick to my guns. I am sympathetic if I see a client struggling with lower  turnover, and occasionally adjust my fee downward if only temporarily.

Sure I do not really want to slave away for someone else after 10 years self employed, so these threads have helped give me sense of direction.

Thanks all for your contributions.

 

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Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
26th May 2011 20:55

A bit to add

Hi Tony - from this and your other post I get the feeling you are not giving enough consideration to "number 1".  You are not here just to serve clients but to form, at best, a 50:50 relationship with them and you have a right to be paid a market rate for your services, it's almost as if you need to get a bit angry (even if it's with yourself), to reset the clock?

Obviously without knowing exactly what you do and where you do it from it's difficult to be certain but for all the normal compliance stuff, general advice etc etc for small businesses and personal tax clients an average fee of £500 to £1,000 is not out of bounds and, as others have said, you have a one-off opportunity to bite the bullet and, in as polite and sympathetic way as possible, point out to your clients that you had lost track of the market and have discovered that you have been significantly undercharging for years and will need to double the fees from next year. 

If it was me (and it may well be next year) I would have no hesitation in saying that I was unable to stay in practice at such low rates and that unless fees increase they will be looking for a new accountant anyway.

As said above, you may get some drop outs but they will be well compensated for by the realistic ones who actually value what you do and who will realise that what you say is true and that they have saved hundreds of pounds over the years.  So forget the extra £25, it should be £250....."he who dares!"

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By cymraeg_draig
26th May 2011 23:32

inflation

As others have said, start increasing your fees to a realistic level.

I was taken aback by you quoting for 3 years - dont.  Make it clear that your fees WILL go up EVERY year by at least the rate of inflation - and do it.  Your clients see the cost of bread and milk going up, they see petrol going up, they expect your fees to go up too.  I guaranteed they are putting up what they charge their customers so why should you subsidise them ?

If you'd done that for the last 3 years you would have increased them by -

year 1 £15,000 + 3% = £15450  - £ 450 more than the £15000 you chargedyear 2 £15450 + 4% =  £16068  - £1068 more than the £15000 you chargedyear 3 £16068 + 5% = £16871   - £1871 more than the £15000 you charged

So by not increasing in line with inflation you have lost £3389 in the last 3 years.  Not a fortune perhaps, but a useful sum, and, you would be getting £16871 + another 5% for this years increase = £17714 for this years work.

 

 

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By TonyUK
27th May 2011 14:05

Change fee annually

I have decided that I will inflation index the fee on annual basis, this is a step in the right direction. Whether I should tell client or not I am not sure, but I think I will just include the adjustment in the invoice, and if they ask I will explain. Will increase my initial fee as well during the first year. To put my fees up by £250 that kind of figure  would be catastropic, I live in Hemel Hempstead not in the suburbs of London. 

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By dbowleracca
02nd Jun 2011 22:57

Those fees are too low!!
I'm really shocked at the level of your fees, I think you could double them and still be competitive.

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By Steve Holloway
03rd Jun 2011 08:25

Tony, it can be done!

 I reached exactly the same point as you albeit with a few more clients. In March this year I have moved a basic sole trader fee from about £225 - £300 and smallest limited co. from £425 - £550. This is about a 30% increase on these bread and butter clients and has added a handy £10k to my turnover. That makes the difference (for me) from earning enough to being happy with what I earn. Out of about 100 clients I had about 6 moderately difficult conversations (which I turned to a positive) in all but one case. I also moved all clients to DD which proved to be far more contentious than the fee increase but was easy to waive if people really didn't want to play ball.

The choice of fee levels relflected the mid point in the fee analysis I completed on AWEb in february so I have absolute confidence that clients are unlikely to leave based on my new fees. 

I practice in Hampshire / Surrey mainly so would not be that different to you I would imagine.

It is a sticking plaster ... rip it off in one go.

 

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