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P14 filing without prior P46?

Small company, director paid out small amounts of money during the year, ends the tax year a few £100 short of the Lower Earnings Limit in actual payments.

Q1: Can the extra few £100 be credited to the director's loan account to hit LEL? Accounts for March are not yet drawn up, so could be put in for last date of March.

Q2: Has anyone ever been in the situation where they submitted a P14 for an employee without a prior P46 being submitted? E.g., because, as in the situation above, the director hit the LEL in the very last day of the tax year either by actual payment or credit to the DLA? I spoke to HMRC, who said that they "preferred" that the P46 would have been submitted prior to the P14, but they didn't say it was compulsory, or what would happen if a P14 arrived without a prior P46.

Thanks in advance for your advice!

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12th Apr 2012 15:21

Not entirely clear

I assume you mean that the director has been paying himself and no-one else and that a PAYE scheme has been set up.  If so:

Q1 - Yes

Q2 - In order to get the PAYE scheme set up, you would have had to give the name and NI number of the director(s), so HMRC presumably already know that he is employed.  There is no problem with filing a P35 with P14s for employees not previously notified to HMRC - it will certainly not be rejected.  But if it concerns you, why don't you file a P46 before you file the P35?

 

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12th Apr 2012 15:34

Hi Euan,

Thanks very much for your answers.

Yes, you're right: the PAYE scheme was set up for 2 directors, their NI numbers passed on to HMRC, and no other employees.

Just to clarify: is it not too late to file a P46 about the previous tax year? It would have to be dated at the very latest on April 5 to fall within the previous tax year I suppose?

Thanks,

Kris

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P35 vs P35

Yes you can still file a P46 dated with a last-year start date.

And I've never heard of any problems resulting from a P14 being filed before starter P45/P46. I suspect that people must do it all the time, without even realising they've done it. Particularly when employees start near year end.

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12th Apr 2012 15:54

so its for one of the directors

yes you can submit - are you doing in manually or online - this is where a program like payroll manager pays for itself almost immediately - surely the director has got a code anyway

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12th Apr 2012 20:07

Thanks to all for the answers, much appreciated!

 

 

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13th May 2012 08:13

P46 penaltiy

I set up a PAYE scheme for a new company in November 2011 providing director's details etc on the online set up form.  I have received a penalty for not submitting online forms on time (I assume a p46 for this director) for the quarter ended 05/04/2012.  I am not giving any salary for 2011/12 as the director has substantive PAYE income during the year and intend to complete a NIL p35 due form.  Anyone else had this ?

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Don't assume P46 is reason for penalty

To date I haven't come across a single instance of an employer being fined for late submission of P45/P46. (I've come across threats from HMRC but never a fine, and curiously I can't find a penalty regime for submission of in-year movement forms, having searched for it previously)

How would HMRC know that any employees have started if you haven't filed anything yet? A director certainly isn't necessarily a company employee. Rather than assuming I'd give them a call tomorrow and ask what the penalty is actually for, and the get nil P35 form in now, before May 19th.

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13th May 2012 08:51

P46 penalty
Thanks for the comment Tom. I did find something on the HMRC website as follows:-

"Penalties for failing to file your in-year forms online
Almost all employers must file the in-year forms shown in the table
below online. If you do not file online when required to do so, HMRC
may charge you a penalty. The penalty will range from £100 up to a
maximum of £3000 depending on the number of forms that should have been
filed online.

Form When to use
P45 Part 1 when an employee leaves your business
P45 Part 3 when a new employee starts
P46 when a new employee starts, but has no P45 from their previous
employer
P46 (Pen) for sending details of a new pension or annuity that you
start to pay
P46 (Expat) for certain employees seconded to work in the UK"

I shall discover more tomorrow when I set aside an hour to queue wait for an answer !

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HMRC manuals seem silent...

Tiverton wrote:
Thanks for the comment Tom. I did find something on the HMRC website as follows:- "Penalties for failing to file your in-year forms online Almost all employers must file the in-year forms shown in the table below online. If you do not file online when required to do so, HMRC may charge you a penalty. The penalty will range from £100 up to a maximum of £3000 depending on the number of forms that should have been filed online. Form When to use P45 Part 1 when an employee leaves your business P45 Part 3 when a new employee starts P46 when a new employee starts, but has no P45 from their previous employer P46 (Pen) for sending details of a new pension or annuity that you start to pay P46 (Expat) for certain employees seconded to work in the UK" I shall discover more tomorrow when I set aside an hour to queue wait for an answer !

 

Yes I've seen that sentence before. But I've never seen any definition of what "when required to do so" means, how long you get, when the fines start, how they escalate from the lower to upper limit, and so on. Nor have I ever heard of the penalty actually applying, however late P45/P46 got submitted.

Curiously (but perhaps not curiously given that I've not heard of late P45/P46 actually incurring a real fine) this page from HMRC's staff manual, which goes into detail on P35/P14 late penalties and CIS late penalties and P11D etc, doesn't seem to reference P45/P46 at all, nor can I find any germane references on the other related pages of the HMRC manual. But I stand ready to be corrected if anyone else can find them.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/cogmanual/COG914000.htm

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13th May 2012 12:14

Curiouser & curiouser

I only had the front page of the penalty notice as my assistant scanned it in 2 parts.  I now have the back page which gives a table of the penalties.  It states "Number of paper starter & leaver forms included in the quarter -

1-2    NIL                                                                                                 3-49  £100  - etc"

As the company has only 1 director then this negates the penalty of £100 charged on the front of the penalty notice,  In addition, as no paper form  has been submitted then this adds to the confusion. 

I am looking forward to my conversation with HMRC tomorrow (provided I get someone who knows what they are talking about !).

 

 

 

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