P35 and missing birthdays

P35 and missing birthdays

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I took on a payroll in January from a previous bureaux. The client had been taking on employees but without P45/P46s being completed all the time. From over 50 records missing DOBs, NI numbers, addresses etc we are down to 7 former employees without DOBs. 

Having explained to the client the documentation required for new employees and the process of notifying HMRC they have ensured all new employees complete a P46 (if no P45) and have worked hard to reduce the number of incomplete records, I appreciate this isn't ideal but the contact details they held no longer work for these remaining few people. 

Is there still a default DOB to enter as Moneysoft won't allow filing of the P35 without a DOB for each employee.

Replies (19)

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By dnicholson
17th May 2012 10:15

No, you need a gender and DOB if you don't have an NI number. It's an HMRC restriction, rather than your payroll software.

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By stt
17th May 2012 12:22

Don't think that is correct...

 

as I filed online for a client with two staff without NI numbers or dob (software enters 1/1/1901 as default dob). Used PAYE Master but would not have thought that matters as they should all adhere to the same rules.

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By dnicholson
17th May 2012 12:36

But that is a date of birth

If you enter 1/1/1901 you have entered a date of birth, so it will file.

However you're not supposed to do this. See http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rti/dip/get-payroll-right.htm.

Quote:

Date of birth

Please:

Always provide the correct date of birth. Do not enter a default date or incorrect date.

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Replying to CMED:
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By stt
17th May 2012 16:59

 

 

The question is whether one can file without knowing the correct date of birth and NI Number - I am informed Iris PAYE Master defaults to 1/1/1901 where the dob field is blank - one assumes that is with HMRC's agreement, and so the filing will be accepted (the 1/1/1901 value will inform HMRC that the dob is unknown).

Your link is to guidance on the new RTI system, and the manner of phrasing ('please') indicates what they would like you to do, rather than what you must do (in the sense you won't be able to file if you do not).

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By dnicholson
17th May 2012 17:00

Still no

One can't file without a DOB and gender if there is no NINO. Entering a default DOB is wrong, check with HMRC.

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By Tosie
17th May 2012 17:19

oops

If you enter 01/01/1901 the program should/will wipe out employees contribution.

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Replying to Ruddles:
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By stt
17th May 2012 17:47

If you are using a payroll program that will 'wipe out' NI contributions solely on entry of a certain dob value, then I would consider changing if I were you!

The program I use flags a warning if you enter a dob that indicates letter C should be used, where it isn't being used, but you need to change the letter manually for the NI calculations to be affected.

 

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By jjswjjsw
17th May 2012 19:41

1/1/1901

Thank you for your comments. I appreciate the employer should have the DOB but the previous bureaux didn't insist on full employee details and these former employees (all students) moved home during last summer hence not being able to contact them now.

I can't enter 1/1/1901 as the DOB as the software defaults to 1/1/2001 making the individual 11 years old.

I have tried calling the Employer's Helpline but it repeatedly tells me it's extremely busy and then hangs up on the rare occasions it lets me pick any options I work through the menus and then get told it's busy and it hangs up! The agent's line can't deal with PAYE queries...

Could those on Iris possibly see if the software chooses a 'new' default DOB.

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Replying to SteveHa:
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By stt
17th May 2012 21:12

 

 

Yes, the dob defaults to 1/1/1901 - refer FAQ3 http://small-business-software.iris.co.uk/support/iris-paye-master/faqs/...

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Tom McClelland
By TomMcClelland
17th May 2012 23:41

HMRC won't accept that

HMRC will not accept 1/1/1901 without an NI Number. That is because you shouldn't employ someone unless you have either their birthday (and gender) or NI Number.

Presumably the previous Bureau wasn't using accredited software as one of the accreditation tests consists of checking that new employees can't be paid without HMRC's required information being supplied.

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Replying to cheekychappy:
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By stt
18th May 2012 12:03

Tom,

Could you please clarify what you mean by 'HMRC will not accept 1/1/1901' - accept for what purpose? I have successfully filed (that is my payroll software didn't complain and I received a 'successful' filing email from HMRC) for a client where two staff (out of hundreds) had missing NI and dob, and for whom 1/1/1901 was down as dob. Same position for these employees for 2010/11, and no come back from HMRC. So it looks like their online filing system does accept that value (albeit it may assume that is the correct dob)?

I was wrong in my comments above, that my software enters the default 1/1/1901, and I have now checked and these two people were imported into my software when I took over a payroll in 2010/11, and the imported data had 1/1/1901 as dob.

As a software developer, you may know what values of the dob field flag as errors (e.g. above a certain age, like 112!)

 

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By landscaper
18th May 2012 09:34

Why not....

send a letter to the relevant employees saying no further pay until details provided and explain it is their own interests to supply this for their tax and NI records etc - make a time and date that they have to be in an office signing a bit of paper with the full details written down.  Get tough!  You and the client have wasted enough time.

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Replying to DP Walsh:
Tom McClelland
By TomMcClelland
18th May 2012 09:58

I think you missed the word "former"...

landscaper wrote:

send a letter to the relevant employees saying no further pay until details provided and explain it is their own interests to supply this for their tax and NI records etc - make a time and date that they have to be in an office signing a bit of paper with the full details written down.  Get tough!  You and the client have wasted enough time.

Something tells me that former employees won't give a...

And the filing deadline for this information is today. (well, tomorrow, but that's a saturday)

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By landscaper
18th May 2012 10:36

correct

yes I did!  and I I take your point when it comes to former!  I suppose the only sensible solution is to take a reasonable "guesstimate" at the age, enter it as 1st January 1984 etc and send a letter to HMRC explaining the situation once the P35 is filed - if they don't answer the phone and the employees don't respond then nothing more can be done.  HMRC are just going to have to marry up some records themselves. 

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By jjswjjsw
18th May 2012 10:37

Guesstimates seem the way forwards

Tom - it seems strange the previous software didn't insist on more information but this is the situation I inherited. Luckily the client has listened and now collects full information for new employees.

 

The client has given me approximate ages for these former employees and I think that a "guesstimated DOB" seems the way to go. 

http://www.payandbenefitsmagazine.co.uk/pab/article/payroll-alliance-focus-12319472 re the removal of a default DOB on 23.06.11 said: 

"Employers could enter the default year, regardless, or make a judgment call on the employee’s date of birth, neither option is ideal but both meet HMRC’s Quality Standard criteria."

and I recall but can't locate guidance that if an employee failed to complete a P46 the employer should use their judgement to complete the P46 and therefore choose a tax code as appropriately as possible, so logic applies the same to the DOB. 

 

We all know what a struggle HMRC's helplines can be, what annoys me is not being given the choice of joining a queue. 

 

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Replying to Wellington:
Tom McClelland
By TomMcClelland
18th May 2012 11:11

Guess is probably best shot

jjswjjsw wrote:

Tom - it seems strange the previous software didn't insist on more information but this is the situation I inherited.

The client has given me approximate ages for these former employees and I think that a "guesstimated DOB" seems the way to go.

I'd agree that making a guess (perhaps talk to line managers to do that) is the best shot to file something on time.

My remark about accredited software was slightly wistful. The rules are well known, and were certainly tested ruthlessly at our accreditation visits, yet we frequently receive "pick-up" data exported from major accredited software packages that break those rules. I don't understand what the accreditation process can have been involving on some of those sites.

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Replying to Wellington:
Tom McClelland
By TomMcClelland
18th May 2012 11:12

duplicate

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Tom McClelland
By TomMcClelland
18th May 2012 14:00

Ok, interesting anomaly/loophole

On further study, there appears to be a loophole in HMRC's software requirements.

1/1/1901 is the date to be filed by software when no DOB has been entered. Software is only supposed to permit no DOB were there IS an NI number. HMRC's haven't thought it through, because the the requirement for an entered DOB is as follows:

1. Must be completed if the NINO is not known.
2. Must be a valid calendar date in the appropriate format.
3. Must be today or earlier.

So, HMRC will allow you to physically enter 1/1/1901 and pretend that the employee is 111, because they don't define "valid calendar date" further. You could probably enter 1/1/1701 if you wanted to! A pensioner could certainly be born 1/1/1901 so they *can't* exclude it.

Apologies if I've misled people. I've confused the apparent intention of the business rules of accreditation and filing with their actual execution by HMRC.

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Replying to mrme89:
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By stt
18th May 2012 14:29

Thanks Tom, very useful

I imagine there are many dob errors in submitted returns (especially as P60s no longer show the dob for employees to check), although I agree 1/1/1901 is more of an 'obvious' error (despite it being possible for someone of that age to be on a payroll somewhere!).

I would hope (and think it is probably the case) that such relatively minor errors (i.e. 1/1/1901 dob and no NI number) are not treated as an incorrect return that can be rejected (especially where the PAYE is correct).

On another note, there seems to be an issue where some payroll software does not perform validation checks after importing data (e.g. via a csv file) as oppposed to direct entry. I would think many people do import data these days, so that's a point of vulnerability!

 

 

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