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Question from Mr Pedant

Do I say "I have filed your Annual Return at Companies House" or "I have filed your Annual Return with Companies House"?

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By BKD
07th Dec 2012 11:52

How about both

Filed with The Registrar at Companies House.

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Should that not have been...

... question for Mr Pedant? :)

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07th Dec 2012 12:06

Oh! I do like a bit of pedantry!

Either Filed at or Filed with will serve, as would Submitted/sent to.

[Edit] I read it differently to you, Steve - question by Mr Pedant

 

 

 

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@Eaun

I was commenting on the approriateness of the first respondent to the pedantry request! :)

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By BKD
07th Dec 2012 12:34

Votes

Steve Kesby wrote:

I was commenting on the approriateness of the first respondent to the pedantry request! :)

Was that you returnig the favour and voting for me as AW POTY?  :)

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By Sarah P
07th Dec 2012 12:26

Is this our very own

Pedants' Corner?

I could be happy here.

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07th Dec 2012 12:27

Personally prefer the "with"

Think of it another way, do you file tax returns "at" HMRC, or "with" HMRC?  I always lean towards the latter as there is no one place which defines HMRC.

In the same way, Companies House is a body like HMRC with more than one office, so I'd lean towards the "with".  That said, the Cardiff office is the main one, so "at" doesn't generate the fingernails-on-the-chalkboard response in me.

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By Old Greying Accountant
07th Dec 2012 12:50

Hmmm ...

mbdx7ja2 wrote:

Think of it another way, do you file tax returns "at" HMRC, or "with" HMRC?  I always lean towards the latter as there is no one place which defines HMRC.

In the same way, Companies House is a body like HMRC with more than one office, so I'd lean towards the "with".  That said, the Cardiff office is the main one, so "at" doesn't generate the fingernails-on-the-chalkboard response in me.

My view is "with" the Registrar (the body) "at" Companies House (the place where "he/she" lives) - there is only one Companies House for each of England & Wales; Scotland and Northern Ireland, the London address is just an information centre. Companies House(s) being (a) building(s) in which the register is housed.

From the horses mouth:

The Registrar of Companies

The Registrar of Companies for England and Wales, and Chief Executive of Companies House is Tim Moss. His office is based at Companies House in Cardiff.

The Registrar of Companies for Scotland is Dorothy Blair and her office is based in Edinburgh.

The Registrar of Companies for Northern Ireland is Helen Shilliday and her office is based in Belfast.

There is also an Information Centre in London.

The use of "with" Companies House does ellicit the fingers on the blackboard response from me

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AW POTY

In politics that's what would be regarded as a safe seat! :)

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07th Dec 2012 12:55

@OGA

Can still file at London office though...

And what about ethereal filing online?  Are many returns these days physically delivered - i.e. "at"?

Like I said, don't think it's wrong, just feel "with" is more representative of the nature of filing returns these days.

 

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By Old Greying Accountant
07th Dec 2012 13:04

@mbdx7ja2 - No you can't

mbdx7ja2 wrote:

Can still file at London office though...

And what about ethereal filing online?  Are many returns these days physically delivered - i.e. "at"?

Like I said, don't think it's wrong, just feel "with" is more representative of the nature of filing returns these days.

You can leave documents there and they will be treated as filed the day they are received, but they will be forwarded to Cardiff for actual filing

As per the verbose horse:

Delivery of documents

During normal office hours staff are happy to date-stamp either a written receipt or a copy of the covering letter, but we regret that we are unable to stamp copies of the documents themselves.

There is a letterbox in our front door to enable deliveries outside office hours. All documents posted through the letterbox until midnight will be given that days date and forwarded unopened to our Cardiff office. Please note there are no facilities to provide receipt of delivery outside our opening hours.

The letterbox is 37cm long by 6.5cm wide.

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Online delivery

If you file online, hasn't the Return or Accounts or whatever been submitted to (the Registrar at) Companies House?

Funny that Companies House don't mention how high off the ground their letter box is, in case one's ever passing and gets taken short.

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By Old Greying Accountant
07th Dec 2012 13:17

@ George

Having had to avail myself (postally that is) last week, I can advise it is at a perfect height (for your average man anyway!).

There is even a handy large plastic box behind it!

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07th Dec 2012 13:16

Now that's pedantic!

So you're saying if I file a paper return, by hand, on 31 October (naturally) at the Brighton office of HMRC which they then send to the taxpayers' actual office (say Edinburgh), via Kew, that I have filed that return at the Edinburgh office?  What would the date of filing be?  I'd hope they'd accept 31 October and not 1 November (or later) on the basis of receipt and processing in Scotland.

I do not believe that the fact that CoH internal processes forward all post to Cardiff for their internal processing does not make a hypothetical letter I have filed at the London office become a letter filed (by me) at the Cardiff office.

A return being filed "at" an office makes sense, as I concurred before.  But the generic of filed with a body makes far more sense in this day and age.  And clearly the "with" and "at" by BKD and you takes the best of both worlds.

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By Old Greying Accountant
07th Dec 2012 13:23

But ...

... Companies House is a building, like "Dun Roaming", "Bide a Wee" etc. (or when I retire "Dun Counting"!).

The body corporate is "The Registrar of Companies"

Same as you would send letters "to" HMRC "at" Long Benton!

 

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By BKD
07th Dec 2012 13:31

The pedant is back

Old Greying Accountant wrote:

The body corporate is "The Registrar of Companies"

No it's not:

http://www.companies-house.gov.uk/about/functionsHistory.shtml

 

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By Old Greying Accountant
07th Dec 2012 13:53

Sorry ...

BKD wrote:

Old Greying Accountant wrote:

The body corporate is "The Registrar of Companies"

No it's not:

http://www.companies-house.gov.uk/about/functionsHistory.shtml

... your link confirms my post, it does not refute it.

Further more, it shows this:

All limited companies in England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland are registered at Companies House

Note "at", not "with"!

 

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By BKD
07th Dec 2012 15:01

Huh?

Old Greying Accountant wrote:

BKD wrote:

Old Greying Accountant wrote:

The body corporate is "The Registrar of Companies"

No it's not:

http://www.companies-house.gov.uk/about/functionsHistory.shtml

... your link confirms my post, it does not refute it.

How so, OGA? [Edited - sorry, George]

You say that "The Registrar of Companies" is a body corporate, yet that page clearly indicates that the Registrars are individual persons.

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Eh?

BKD wrote:

Old Greying Accountant wrote:

BKD wrote:

Old Greying Accountant wrote:

The body corporate is "The Registrar of Companies"

No it's not:

http://www.companies-house.gov.uk/about/functionsHistory.shtml

... your link confirms my post, it does not refute it.

How so, George? You say that "The Registrar of Companies" is a body corporate, yet that page clearly indicates that the Registrars are individual persons.

He's not George (or is he?). I am.  I agree.

I'd say that "Companies House" was the government department (which has its own website) and that the Registrar of Companies was an office.

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By BKD
07th Dec 2012 15:05

In the spirit of the thread ...

George Attazder wrote:

I'd say that "Companies House" was the government department (which has its own website) and that the Registrar of Companies was an office.

I'd say that Companes House is a Government department and that the Registrar is an office - as far as I know, both still exist.

 

(And apologies for the mix-up with names - that's the problem when one focusses on trivial detail, you miss the important stuff)

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07th Dec 2012 13:24

I would agree...

https://www.gov.uk/companies-house

 

...but it appears that Companies House has become an accepted form of the body corporate, otherwise how could you possibly register with a building?

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07th Dec 2012 13:31

More pedantry

on the subject of pedantry, is it correct to say that: -

Bloggs & Bloggs LLP is a firm of accountants.

or

Bloggs & Bloggs LLP are a firm of accountants.

 

 

 

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It's either...

jon_griffey wrote:

on the subject of pedantry, is it correct to say that: -

Bloggs & Bloggs LLP is a firm of accountants.

or

Bloggs & Bloggs LLP are a firm of accountants.

Bodgitt and Runn LLP is a decidely dodgy firm of solicitors, or

Bodgitt and Runn are a couple of crooks.

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By Old Greying Accountant
07th Dec 2012 13:55

With George, "is"

jon_griffey wrote:

on the subject of pedantry, is it correct to say that: -

Bloggs & Bloggs LLP is a firm of accountants.

or

Bloggs & Bloggs LLP are a firm of accountants.

There is only one firm, are is plural!

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Stop pendantising (is that a verb?) you lot and get on with some proper work!

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Virtually there

There's every possibility that the annual return is captured and held in a data centre, so never actually arrives at, with or roundabout Companies House.  I'm knocking off early so will leave others to work that one out (out with which they will work one?)

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It's a fair cop!

Not the thread for slovenly grammar!

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07th Dec 2012 16:21

This now raises the issue for George

Are you now George Attazder or Goerge Withaxder? Eh!

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07th Dec 2012 16:46

at with

My view:

-file "at" if the object is a physical location;

-file "with" if the object is an entity or person.

So "at Companies House" but "with the Registrar of Companies".

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By Old Greying Accountant
08th Dec 2012 21:06

Ok ...

... VAT's all done - I agree with George, so the Registrar, being an office, is a body corporate, as is Companies House as a government department!

But, CH is also a place, so I would say you've filed it at Companies House, as the (to me anyway) supposition is you've sent it to the place, not the department!!

 

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By BKD
09th Dec 2012 09:23

???

OGA - how can you continue to say that the Registrar is a body corpoarate when it is an individual person (to be correct, they are individual persons)? A company director holds an office. Does that make a director a body corporate?

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An office...

... by definition is a corporation sole, rather than a body corporate (see S.1173 CA 2006), albeit that an office might be occupied by a body corporate (for instance, there's nothing in S.1060 CA 2006 to prevent the office of Registrar being occupied by a personal service company!).

@BKD Aren't they either individuals or real persons?

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By pedant
09th Dec 2012 18:49

This is NOT pedantry! (It's not even a 5 minute argument)

THIS IS PEDANTRY

 

http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/anyanswers/question/late-filing-self-assessment 

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By Old Greying Accountant
09th Dec 2012 20:40

Accept George's point ...

... it is a corporation sole.

The point I was making is that an action would be taken against the office, not the incumbent, if those actions were taken as Registrar.

Likewise, any documents are sent to the office, not the office holder.

Ostensibly BKD, yes, a letter addressed to the directors would pertain to any current director, even though the director who gave cause to write is no longer one. 

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