SA for 07/08 & 08/09

Smartmart566 - Perhaps not so smart after all !!

Didn't find your answer?

Morning Ladies/Gents

New to this, please excuse my manners

Just had an interesting conversation with a HMRC “field officer” the lady in question surprised me by throwing a warning of enforcement action for £11.50k onto the floor. Shame ... she was such a nice lady.

Said Notice demands immediate payment within 7 days and goes further to state that Control of Goods will be taken if no payment is received.

The notice does not state what the fines and or penalties are for, it just demands and says “Type of Tax:  SA” no years stated either.

After a brief conversation with the kind lady on the phone she informed me the figure is purley fines & penalties for not returning 07/08 – 08/09 SA’s.

This surprises me even more as during those years I was running a Ltd concern, which ran into trouble and was placed in Voluntary Liquidation in 08

HOWEVER  - Out of the 5 Creditors the 3 largest creditors were HMRC, I recall the inspector been very unhappy at the time.

During these years I was obviously in regular contact with HMRC, I was also under the impression our SA will have automatically been returned to HMRC as we had a Co Accountant who was dealing with all tax affairs during these years and subsequent years come to think of it.

I have obviously been unaware the revenue have been chasing these outstanding returns

My Questions are;

Why would the revenue be charging such fees and are these fees enforceable considering the length of time ?

As I (we) were PAYE for these years as No dividend was allowed why would they be pursuing me personally for outstanding returns when there is nil other income during those years 2 years ??   

Constructive advice most welcome 

Replies (13)

Please login or register to join the discussion.

By Tim Vane
02nd Oct 2016 15:04

Perhaps your ramblings would best be addressed to a lawyer. Why do you think an outstanding debt would not be enforceable? The limitation act does not apply to debts owed to the crown AFAIK.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Tim Vane:
avatar
By smartmart566
02nd Oct 2016 15:24

Afternoon Mr Vane

Personally I do not see it as an outstanding debt, I see it as a penalty and why would I have to issue a SA if there was nil other income ?
Do not understand your quote regarding Limitation act please expand

Thanks (0)
Replying to smartmart566:
RLI
By lionofludesch
02nd Oct 2016 18:25

It is a penalty and, if you haven't paid it, it's an outstanding debt too.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

If you're sent a return, you must fill it in these days. Once upon a time, your penalty would have been limited to the tax you owe but HMRC saw a nice little earner and changed the rules.

Actually, your returns are so old that the old rules apply and you may be able to negotiate sending them in late and getting the penalty reduced to zero if you owed no tax.

Take the advice you've been offered and seek advice.

Thanks (1)
Replying to smartmart566:
avatar
By Manchester_man
02nd Oct 2016 18:27

You asked whether the debt could still be pursued after such a length of time. You appeared to be suggesting that the debt may be statute barred, i.e. out of time, over 6 years old etc. However, this does not apply to debts owed to Her Majesty.

Essentially, no, the Revenue are not 'out of time'.

Thanks (0)
Replying to smartmart566:
avatar
By Manchester_man
02nd Oct 2016 18:29

smartmart566 wrote:

Afternoon Mr Vane

and why would I have to issue a SA if there was nil other income ?

Because HMRC decided that they wanted you to. It is as simple as that.

Thanks (0)
Replying to smartmart566:
RLI
By lionofludesch
03rd Oct 2016 07:18

smartmart566 wrote:
...... and why would I have to issue a SA if there was nil other income ?

You don't issue a return. HMRC do and, once they've done that, they require you to complete it.

Thanks (1)
By johngroganjga
02nd Oct 2016 17:49

How would they know that you had no income outside PAYE if you did not submit returns? They are not clairvoyant.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Manchester_man
02nd Oct 2016 18:20

Whether you were required to be within self-assessment or not does not really matter. HMRC issued tax returns and therefore you are required to file them.

I'm not sure how you could not have been aware that HMRC had issued (and were chasing) tax returns. The letters would have gone to your personal address and I would imagine there would have been many letters between 2008 and now.

If you had not left it so long, I would possibly have asked HMRC to withdraw the notice to file a tax return on the basis that there was no un-taxed income.

You could try that, but other than that, the penalties should have been appealed.

Your next move very much depends on what has happened during the intervening years. If you have heard nothing for years, that is one thing. If you have been burying your head and leaving the brown letters unopened, that is quite another.

Take advice... Now!

Thanks (0)
By SteveHa
03rd Oct 2016 09:13

lionofludesch has given you your answer. If there is zero tax to pay arising from the Returns then the penalties will be capped at zero for those years, and if you are confident that there will be zero tax, simply bring them up to date.

Thanks (0)
Replying to SteveHa:
By JCresswellTax
03rd Oct 2016 09:17

SteLacca wrote:

lionofludesch has given you your answer. If there is zero tax to pay arising from the Returns then the penalties will be capped at zero for those years, and if you are confident that there will be zero tax, simply bring them up to date.

That won't necessarily work though will it?

The Returns are out of time, so I believe the only course of action would be special relief (formerly equitable liability) and a special appeal against the penalties.

I suppose you are 'bringing your affairs up to date' but it definitely will not be as 'simple' as just filing the returns.

Thanks (0)
Replying to JCresswellTax:
RLI
By lionofludesch
03rd Oct 2016 09:36

No, it won't necessarily work.

But it's worth a try.

In fact, it's his best option.

Thanks (0)
Replying to lionofludesch:
Worm
By TheLambtonWorm
03rd Oct 2016 11:51

Agree with Lion.

Go see a decent accountant ASAP and I expect they'll be able to sort it for you.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By craig preece
03rd Oct 2016 12:39

May take some digging to find exact references but I believe the rules relating to penalties and late submission for Returns under the old penalty regime are such that they do not have to accept and process Returns that are out of time (and replace the tax due) but do have to limit any penalties to the amounts due from the Returns they refuse to process, if applicable.

Thanks (0)