Sage Year End journals & Accountant dispute

Sage Year End journals & Accountant dispute

Didn't find your answer?

I am a bookkeeper who set up a sole trader as a 'company' on Sage Line 50.  My client is VAT registered, cash accounting and I have 5 years of his accounts history on Sage that I don't want to lose.  I have been having a running battle with his accountant each year as he has never provided me with any year end journals to adjust the accounts and our figures always differ because of this.  As a result I am unable to get the full potential out of Sage and only get accurate accounts once a year when the tax return is assessed by him.  I always leave his meetings feeling like I am not doing my job right which is tough because the data entry is 100% accurate.

He tells me that I have set up Sage wrongly as there is a special way to do it that means all the nominal codes are zeroed at the end of the year.  I can't see how you can get an accurate balance sheet if you do that but maybe I am missing something.  I have been unable to find any information that backs up what he is saying and I have never come across this situation before.

I run two other Ltd companies on Sage and have a separate accountant and they always provide me with journals to adjust my data and make the balance sheet accurate.  

This accountant is suggesting I wipe my data and start again but as we are VAT cash accounting with all the transactions flagged the prospect of doing that is horrendous.  I am concerned it would mean archiving the information to a point where I can't retrieve it easily in order to comply with my Sage licences which would make it difficult to manage.

He has said he will go back over the accounts and come up with the journals I need but this will be expensive.  Personally I feel this is something he should have done from the start and do not want to be hit with a huge bill for his time but if I have made a mistake then that's fair enough. I know he doesn't like computerised systems and I don't want to get caught out.

I am the first to admit I don't know everything about Sage but I am tired of being dismissed as someone who should know better.  My client is quite attached to him and I am sure every year he wonders why he pays me when we cover the same ground. 

Maybe this is the difference between a sole trader and a Ltd company and I wonder if the settings should have been different in some way.  Admittedly my client started small and Sage was total overkill but when he VAT registered I decided to use it as I already had the licenses.  I set it up based on General Business - Standard Accounts.  His company is growing rapidly and he is considering incorporation and I wish to start providing him with accounts on a quarterly basis. I am currently unable to produce something I have faith in.

Can anyone please help me to solve this as I am about to face the accountant again.  Perhaps all I need is a better explanation than the one I have been given for what I am supposed to have done wrong and some guidance on the easiest way to put it right.

Replies (13)

Please login or register to join the discussion.

avatar
By HeavyMetalMike
09th Sep 2014 13:48

I saw words "accountant

I saw words "accountant dispute" and " I am a bookeeper" and tongue in cheek there can only be one correct person.

 

But on reading your query it is clear it is you who knows what they are doing. There is no difference between ltd and s/t in Sage.

 

He need only do jnls at the last year end so if you ask him for YE JNLS then that is extra time and effort and unnecessary.

Speak to the business owner and express your concerns about the accountant. I have one client that we never do the year end JNLS (client never posts them so we've stopped preparing them) but we just do the accounts each year by balance sheet movements, and I trust my staff here when they say that it's correct!

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Gem7321
09th Sep 2014 14:00

You say you get accurate accounts once a year when the tax return is done so you should be able to prepare your opening balance adjustments yourself from these (unless any control accounts are affected then you will need to know exactly what's happened).

 

I think the accountant is being awkward, it is not expensive to prepare a set of opening balance adjustments.  And I think the procedure he refers to where 'all the nominal codes are zeroed' would be the year end procedure which only clears the P&L balances, unless I'm missing something entirely!

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Sandnickel
09th Sep 2014 14:04

ask the accountant (or your client) for the yr end tb

and then you should be able to produce the journals yourself. No work at all for the accountant and you will have some useful SAGE figures. 

Thanks (0)
avatar
By rjoconnor81
09th Sep 2014 14:14

Take it in hand

You seem to know what you are doing, if I were you I would ask for a detailed end of year trial balance (he should already have this so there should be no charge) and adjust your sage in line with that.  Then if there are any queries/discrepancies that you don't understand go back to the accountant with a clear list. 

Thanks (0)
By bro0010
09th Sep 2014 14:46

Reassurance

I hope this will provide you with some reassurance on some of the issues you raise.

If you compare the Limited Company and Sole Trader standard charts of accounts in Sage you'll discover that there are only half a dozen or so accounts that are not common to both charts. I can provide you with a PDF of all the charts of accounts available in Sage if you want to compare for yourself. I would describe the process of converting the "wrong" chart of accounts to the "right" chart of accounts as fairly trivial. A couple of account name edits and maybe adding an account or so is all that will be required.  Not a big problem at all.

All Sage charts of accounts employ the same year end approach. This is identical on the Limited Company and Sole Trader charts, employing the standard methodology of clearing the accounts designated as P&L accounts to retained earnings at the year end. I've never heard of anyone clearing all accounts at the year end. I dare say it could probably be done but it would certainly not be a "standard" approach on Sage (or any other software so far as I'm aware). Is he perhaps saying that you haven't run the year end process and you ought to have?

I'd be surprised if there was anything wrong that would require abandoning your current set-up but, admittedly, I am unable to envisage what problems may lurk. Perhaps a way forward would be to just process the difference between the Sage opening balance sheet and your accountant's opening balance sheet for the current year to the last day of the the previous financial year in Sage. That would get you to a point where, presumably, you would be happy moving forward and the accountant wouldn't have to charge a small fortune to detail out all the elements that will add to the same figures you've processed.

Does that sound like a plan? 

Warm regards,

Ian

Onion Reporting Software Ltd

www.onionrs.co.uk

Sage reporting packs in Excel to go

Thanks (0)
By Moonbeam
09th Sep 2014 16:03

Sorry you've having this trouble

In the past I've had to get final adjustments from lots of different accountants. Some give these to me when I ask, but many just ignore me and I have to get the client to ask.

Some then give me incomplete figures or indecipheral manual scribbles.

There is the professional jealousy problem here I am sure you are finding. Sometimes even the client won't help you, and that's when I walk away.

Often the accountant concerned is very old fashioned and doesn't understand how bookkeeping packages work and you then have to adjust what they give you. Over the years, I have found this to be less of a problem but still have to deal with 3 or 4 accountants who appear to be intent on making it as difficult as possible for me.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By fcaulkett
09th Sep 2014 16:32

One Confirmation

Your experience has confirmed what I suspected and you have read between the lines correctly.  It did feel like a pat on the head from a misogynist dinosaur who got great pleasure out of telling me I was doing it wrong.  I just need to know for certain before I take a hard line as this has been going on for too long.  My client would help me out if he could and dreads the meetings as much as I do.  He he has trusted me for years because of my experience but as neither of us have the same qualifications as the accountant does we feel a bit powerless.

Thanks (0)
Replying to lionofludesch:
By coolmanwithbeard
09th Sep 2014 16:44

Change?

fcaulkett wrote:

Your experience has confirmed what I suspected and you have read between the lines correctly.  It did feel like a pat on the head from a misogynist dinosaur who got great pleasure out of telling me I was doing it wrong.  I just need to know for certain before I take a hard line as this has been going on for too long.  My client would help me out if he could and dreads the meetings as much as I do.  He he has trusted me for years because of my experience but as neither of us have the same qualifications as the accountant does we feel a bit powerless.

I really hope my clients don't dread meeting me!! - I'm confident they don't!

 

So neither of you like/rate him?

 

 

Then change - simples!!

Thanks (0)
Replying to lionofludesch:
By alanfbrown
05th Mar 2015 12:30

Get a new accountant!

As a bookkeeper dealing with a lot of accountants, I always tell my clients to get an account/bookkeeper that they like and can work with. If they are going to the meetings dreading them then something is very wrong with the relationship. Yes, we want to have a critical friend, but this shouldn't be a battle. I always hope that the accountant and I can be allies, but have to confess that it doesn't happen on too many occasions, and yes I too have accountants whom I find it difficult to get information from.

Thanks (0)
By coolmanwithbeard
09th Sep 2014 16:40

This makes me soo cross

I work closely with my client's book keepers. If they have a BS matching mine at the end of the job life is easier all round and the client is happier.

In both Sage & QB there is an accountant's copy routine and accountants should use this to finish the accounts and pass back the information to the book keeper (or client if they do their own).

 

Seriously it's an earner - you then get invited when they get stuck with something and if the book keeper has other clients you are the best accountant so you get the referrals.

 

If you are presented with a dogs breakfast you can be involved in putting it right

We are all professionals together - I wish we all behaved like that

 

M

Thanks (0)
avatar
By andy.partridge
09th Sep 2014 17:51

You should be a team

If you are both acting in the best interests of the client you need to work as a team.

I don't doubt that you would like to, but the problem seems to be with the accountant.

He sounds very defensive. Maybe he is just not a 'people person' and wants to do his own thing while keeping interacting with you to a minimum, but it doesn't sound a very satisfactory relationship from your angle.

Your client might be perfectly content with the current arrangement so I would be wary of rocking the boat. I would only broach the subject with your client if there is some clear benefit to be gained by the client, either financially or the provision of better information that would help him make better business decisions.

If you were an employee I would be inclined to be more assertive about the matter, but you are not. 

 

Thanks (0)
By Moonbeam
09th Sep 2014 17:22

Time to dust down your ego

If you value your professional sanity you will tell your client clearly and politely that unless he/she insists that your accountant gives you a correct opening balance TB for the last financial year he did, then you will not be able to continue working for that client. Of course you would need to carry out the threat if necessary.

Adjusting any years further back than that on Sage is only possible with hours of work using separate directories and why would you want to. The client will have a detailed P & L for each year from his accountant for the earlier years, so if a detailed analysis of yearly figures were required you could set it up on Excel.

If you don't want to issue such an ultimatum to the client, then you will never get any further forward. Sorry, but then that will be your fault. There are other companies who will value your services probably more highly (put up your fees) and whose accountants will be far more professional towards you than this one is.

I really have walked away when the client has insisted on retaining morons for accountants as those people spend quite some time belittling me in the background, and the sort of client who would put up with such a person is too lilly-livered to notice who is really doing a useful job for them. In fact when I take on a new client for just management accounts one of our first conversations is how they rate their current accountant. If they don't rate them very highly, I nearly always find out it's down to the accountant.

I have a really good firm of accountants local to me that I recommend in this situation. That way the client benefits, and as a side issue they think I'm wonderful.

Please please start flexing your muscles. There really are very few good bookkeepers out there and lots of small companies would love to meet you if they knew you were looking for alternative work.

 

Thanks (0)
avatar
By fcaulkett
09th Sep 2014 17:38

Thank you all

You have now returned my confidence to me.  I was aware of the differences to the chart of accounts and have made the necessary adjustments to that. Thank you.

I always try to treat people with the utmost respect and only expect the same in return but I hesitated due to the issue of qualification over experience and never felt quite sure.

The Year End Sage procedure was always done.  When I looked back over the TB's for each year I began to see differences that I simply couldn't explain as I am fairly meticulous about my entries and have been for the last 25 years :)

I am going to take another look at it now with fresh eyes, put together the adjustments I think need to be made and then ask him to check them.  If he is not able to do this then I will tell my client that it' s time to move into the 21st Century.

Thank you all very much for putting my mind at rest and giving me a way forward.

Thanks (0)