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Total lack of understanding

Just in case you haven't noticed, over the years I've had some discussions with various members about Value Pricing (VP).

The members who disagree with me seem to think VP is about ripping clients off. They prefer a "time/cost plus notional profit" approach to pricing, sometimes using timesheets sometime not.

I come at this from the position that time/cost pricing is selfish/self-centred and effectively makes the profession unethical. Continuing with time/cost pricing will make the accounting profession irrelevant. The conclusion is that accountants will just do is more accounts/tax returns as they gradually become more efficient forced by prices falling.

Many existing practitioners may get out before they experience too much pain, but what about the future?

When you understand VP you appreciate it is the only approach to pricing that:

  • Puts the client first
  • Fully aligns the accountant and client
  • Encourage and rewards innovation
  • Drives down costs on low value work
  • Maximises value for everyone (clients, practice owners, employees and society)

Pricing is fundamental to strategy so it seems sensible to me to understand as much as possible about such an important topic. At the end of the day being an accountant in practice requires much more that technical knowledge of accounts/tax. But, there is another reason to fully understand VP.

Business owners expect/need this extra knowledge (especially now) and an accountant who does not understand VP and just prices with cost/plus will probably only be able to talk to their client about things like job costing. 

Over the years I have invested time and energy to build my knowledge of VP through:

  • Reading books
  • Attending seminars and Webinars
  • Accountants (and other professional) who have adopted VP
  • Using VP

I'm interested to know where you have gained your understanding. What have you actually done to build your knowledge of VP?

Bob Harper

Replies

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10th Nov 2012 08:17

Trying

@Shirley - I am not trying to sell VP, just asking why people like you argue with me about it without actually knowing what it is. 

Everyone on AWeb is intelligent but that seems a really dumb thing to do especially when there is an opportunity to learn something that can help you, your clients and the wider community. 

Incidentally, it's why we have a mindset in Crunchers called "dumb technician or smart marketer?".

Technicians are often proud of being ignorant of marketing. They show distain to sales people and selling and don't like being challenged. That attitude needs to be addressed in the profession for it to move forward.

Bob Harper

 

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10th Nov 2012 08:42

@Bob

Bob Harper wrote:

@Shirley - I am not trying to sell VP, just asking why people like you argue with me about it without actually knowing what it is. 

Assumptions, assumptions. You are so wrong!

Most of us do know something of Value pricing, and I, and many others, have explained our reasons for not using it in it's pure form, but you ignore those reasoned arguments and use the old 'nobody understands me/nobody cares about their clients' routine.

You don't listen, so therefore you will never hear what others are saying, or understand their views.

 

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10th Nov 2012 08:54

@Bob Harper

Bob Harper wrote:

Incidentally, it's why we have a mindset in Crunchers called "dumb technician or smart marketer?".

 

... 'smart marketer' - 'helping clients pay more tax'... you might need to rethink your mindset Bob!

Exactly what is it you want from this community?

Clearly you won't tell us what your VP 'secret' is and you're just 'dangling a carrot' in the hope that we might join your franchise - admittedly at £28,250 for the 'best' service it is very tempting!

The only thing I see you doing (constantly) is telling how accountants how awful they are - and that's it.

 

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10th Nov 2012 08:26

Relevant

@Peter - if a firm keeps timesheets (and the vast majority do) their business model is about leveraging time/resources. VP is about leveraging knowledge.

Read the book.

Bob Harper

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10th Nov 2012 08:30

Profitability

"if a firm keeps timesheets (and the vast majority do) their business model is about leveraging time/resources."

So if a firm doesn't know what it costs to provide a service then they may be providing a service at a loss.

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10th Nov 2012 08:34

Automatic response

If anybody disagrees you just say they don't understand.

The reason why so many accountants show distain to sales people is because so many sales people are incompetent.

I've lost track of the amount of times that I've been asked "can you take on more work" in an attempt to get people to say yes and leads on to another pointless question.

I wouldn't phone a business person and ask them if they needed to do a tax return, then ask them if they knew there are penalties for failing to submit tax returns, etc.

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Oh Bob!

I get up this morning and see you're still trying to convince people who know far better than you what works.

You started Crunchers in 2007 and still haven't worked out what works and are obviously still trying to find something that does.

You clearly don't have enough work to do otherwise you wouldn't be constantly battling against the tide on this forum which isn't going to turn.

Why aren't you spending this time finding/doing work?

You have an approach to sales which is quite frightening - conceited, arrogant, ignorant and not very intelligent.

So you're working with 'a' accountant who has 30 clients after one year. Not bad, but there are plenty of others on Aweb who have done far better than this (including me) and have not had to pay a franchise for the pleasure.

I'm really not surprised it isn't working for you.

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10th Nov 2012 09:01

Understanding

@Peter - read the book.

@Kent - I know a time based billing/compliance focussed practice "works" - it just doesn't interest me because I've done it.

It took a few years to accept the original Crunchers strategy was not right. It is taking some time to develop the new proposition.

Well done on your success, a franchise is not for everyone. 

I do not expect anyone who posts message here to change their mind. I do not expect the majority of accountants who read/hear about VP to adopt it.

@Shirley - clients know "something" about bookkeeping but most get it wrong. The difference is they don't argue with you because they know they don't know.

If you had educated yourself on VP and tested it with clients I'd be really interested to hear why you'd go back.  

Bob

 

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10th Nov 2012 09:06

What do I want?

@Jaybee - VP is not my secret, we just use the principles in Crunchers.

What I want to know why accountants argue with me about something they admit they don't know. 

Bob

 

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10th Nov 2012 09:10

lol ... brick wall

Bob Harper wrote:

What I want to know why accountants argue with me about something they admit they don't know. 

We do know, and have rejected it :)

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10th Nov 2012 09:20

@Bob Harper

Bob Harper wrote:

@Jaybee - VP is not my secret, we just use the principles in Crunchers.

What I want to know why accountants argue with me about something they admit they don't know. 

Bob

 

... OK, am now totally fed up with your inane drivel (as everyone else is) and constant failure to answer anything that is asked of you so I will sign off by wishing you the best of luck with your one client - let's hope you don't lose them...

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10th Nov 2012 09:08

Same old .....

You do it your way Bob, and please allow everyone else to do it their way ..... without being overly critical and blaming them for 'not understanding'.

The only way Value Pricing can be competitive is if every single accountancy practice uses that method, and I think I can safely say that isn't going to happen.

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The CUstomer is right

Yesterday I had an interesting “exchange of views” with a builder. I told him that my parents wanted a new path laid a certain way. His response was “what do you know you’re only an accountant”. My reply was “I know you haven’t got the contract – goodbye”.

I’m afraid the OP seems to be making the same fundamental mistake as that arrogant builder – insulting his potential customers.

 

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10th Nov 2012 09:25

Potential customers

@NomdePlume - the builder is probably happy not to be dealing with you.

The people who argue with me on AWeb are not potential customers. They would not dream of working me. And, they wouldn't get in if they wanted to.

@Shirley - what makes you say that the only way VP can be competitive is if every single accountancy practice uses that method?

Bob Harper

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Insults

Bob Harper wrote:

@NomdePlume - the builder is probably happy not to be dealing with you.

Bob Harper

 

The builder discovered that insulting potential customers is not a good sales tactic. It seems you attended the same selling seminar that he did.

It's not disagreeing with a potential customer that is wrong, it's HOW you disagree with them. Certainly insulting them is not a good sales ploy.

 

 

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10th Nov 2012 09:30

Hope

@Jaybee - yep, I'm happy to start with one.

Hope is not my strategy but I will take the good luck you wish me and look forward to you sharing your positive views on VP when AVN have trained you.

Bob

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10th Nov 2012 09:35

@Bob Harper

Bob Harper wrote:

Hope is not my strategy.

Bob

... started in 2007 and by 2012 got one client? I think it is. Goodbye.

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10th Nov 2012 09:36

No answer Bob

I have learned (the hard way) that I would be wasting my time.

Work it out for yourself!

Bye for now.

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Still wasting time?!
@Bob, haven't you got anything better to do than waste your time on here?

You're not prepared to answer questions and you've admitted you won't find any clients here so why not look where you might find some.

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When we launched Crunchers in 2007

Mmm . five years ... so poor old plodding sole-practitioner has profits of a quarter of a million while you ... have realised you are going in the wrong direction. Best get it right soon or we will have all retired and you will have no one to berate.

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10th Nov 2012 11:08

Lots of energy

@Jaybee - the story is started in 2007, launched 25 offices around the UK and now taking one step back to take two forward.

@Steve - well done.

@Kent - I've answered every question and I am not looking for people to join Crunchers at the moment. But, I am getting lots of energy to take on traditional accountants reading all these posts!!!

Bob Harper

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10th Nov 2012 11:27

It's not rocket science

 

Value-based pricing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-based_pricing

“Value based pricing, or Value optimized pricing is a business strategy. It sets prices primarily, but not exclusively, on the value, perceived or estimated, to the customer rather than on the cost of the product or historical prices.

Goods that are very intensely traded (e.g. oil and other commodities) or that are sold to highly sophisticated customers in large markets (e.g. automotive industry) usually are sold based on cost-based-pricing. Value-based-pricing is most successful when products are sold based on emotions (fashion), in niche markets, in shortages (e.g. drinks at open air festival at a hot summer day) or for indispensible add-ons (e.g. printer cartridges, headsets for cell phones).

Long term, by definition, prices based on value-based-pricing are always higher or equal to the prices derived from cost-based-pricing (if they were lower, it would mean that the actual value perceived by the customer is lower than the costs of producing the good plus a profit margin, meaning that companies would long term not be interested to produce and sell at that price).

Value-based pricing is predicated upon an understanding of customer value. In many settings, gaining this understanding requires primary research. This may include evaluation of customer operations and interviews with customer personnel. Survey methods are sometimes used to determine value a customer attributes to a product or a service. The results of such surveys often depict a customer's 'willingness to pay.'

Value-based pricing is something like the holy grail of pricing as is evidenced by the expansive literature on this topic (see amazon). The principal difficulty is that the willingness of the customer to pay a certain price differs between customers, between countries, even for the same customer in different settings (depending on his actual and present needs) so that a true value-based pricing at all times is impossible. Also, extreme focus on value-based pricing might leave customers with a feeling of being exploited which is not helpful for the companies in the long run.

Frameworks for value-based pricing include amongst others Economic Value Estimation, Relative Attribute Positioning, Van Westendorp Price Sensitively Meter and Conjoint Analysis.

However, despite being difficult in implementation, any production and any market positioning should have a consideration of the value the product brings to the customer at the very early stages of product development and is, in fact, employed by many companies.”

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By BKD
10th Nov 2012 11:33

Deja vu

Well, I suppose it is the weekend, after all ;)

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10th Nov 2012 11:46

Insulting

@Peter - VP is not rocket science but to understand it properly requires more than reading one post on Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accountancy

@NomdePlume - I'm not selling anything and the people who argue with me here are not my potential customers.

Bob Harper

 

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By BKD
10th Nov 2012 13:12

So, what's the point?

Bob Harper wrote:

I'm not selling anything and the people who argue with me here are not my potential customers.

Bob Harper

 

So - in one sentence, and in words of two syllables or less, please explain what you hope to achieve with this thread (given that I've yet to see one member of AW that agrees with you). Apologies if this question has already been posed - I can't be bothered reading through 3 pages of your drivel.

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10th Nov 2012 13:20

Apology accepted!

BKD wrote:

 Apologies if this question has already been posed - I can't be bothered reading through 3 pages of your drivel.

 

I never got a believable answer either and I doubt if you will. :-)

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10th Nov 2012 11:54

One post on wiki or one book?

"VP is not rocket science but to understand it properly requires more than reading one post on Wiki."

How about a book on value pricing?

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@Bob
You don't answer questions. Read back through the thread and see.

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10th Nov 2012 12:24

Doing

@Peter - reading a book is a good start but reading a book about golf doesn't make you a pro.

@Kent - feel free to list the questions you think I haven't answered just don't expect me to explain VP.

Bob Harper

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10th Nov 2012 12:32

Why?

"feel free to list the questions you think I haven't answered just don't expect me to explain VP"

because you can't?

I think anybody who knows a subject can explain it to a reasonable degree. I don't see the relevance about whether somebody is good at golf when the discussion is about what golf is.

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10th Nov 2012 13:06

No

@Peter - I probably can't explain it as well as Ron Baker but if you won't finished reading his books I doubt you'd read mine!

My point about reading a book was that to understand it fully it's best to give it a go.

Bob Harper

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10th Nov 2012 13:10

Bob,Thanks for the inspiration for a new name for a dog--CRUNCHER---

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10th Nov 2012 13:24

Simple

@uktaxpal - a great name. 

@BKD - just read the first post with the question.

Bob Harper

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By BKD
10th Nov 2012 13:35

Answer the question, Bob

I asked what YOU hope to achieve with this thread.

Actually, I don't think that anyone needs to read beyond the words of the subject line in the first response on this thread ;)

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10th Nov 2012 13:42

Question

@BKD - the answer is the question:

What have you actually done to build your knowledge of VP?

Bob Harper

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10th Nov 2012 13:52

Quick note

Just a reminder folks - debate is always welcome but please try to avoid personal comments wherever possible.

Hope everyone's having a nice weekend :)

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Let the voice of reason cry out!

I don't usually get too involved in these Bob vs the world punch-ups, but what the hell, it's Saturday afternoon, the kids are off swimming and England aren't playing on terrestrial TV.

Bob - the issue you have, as I'm sure people have already stated, is that most of the AW membership deal most of the time with very small businesses or sole traders. These clients have neither the funds nor the inclination to spend shedloads on services they simply don't feel a need for. What they want is competent compliance stuff from someone they trust at a reasonable cost.

We have recently left AVN after 12 years and I am an unashamed champion of the AVN approach to things. But even in a practice like ours, which buys wholeheartedly into the whole adding value, etc ethos, only around 20% of the client base can be said to be here because of that stuff. I got rid of our subbies, etc, years ago, so we only act for 'bigger' businesses, but even these still predominantly value the old-fashioned stuff most of all. 

There is definitely a place for value pricing, there is definitely a place for charging clients more for additional services of an 'adding value' nature, but these are the jam, not the bread and butter, even for AVN fanboys like me. No doubt your Crunchers experience is the same. I can see that a lot of the non-compliance stuff you are offering through Crunchers is remarkably AVN-like (feel free to disagree) so I wonder whether you have found what we know - most small business owners probably don't get it so aren't going to pay for it.

Why don't we agree that:

1) Anti-Bob: accountants can and do offer more than compliance stuff; sometimes they charge a premium, sometimes they don't. Sometimes it's overt, sometimes it's done in the background. But most clients, most of the time, want the accountant stuff done well, more than anything else. Not making a big noise about adding value, or value pricing isn't a sin.

2)  Pro-Bob: just because your client base isn't one that would lend itself to value pricing or whatever, or you just don't like the idea, doesn't mean the subject is pointless or stupid or Bob is wrong to raise it. We all have differing styles - acting for subbies would be slow torture for me; helping a client set up job costing systems might do the same for you.    

Vive la difference!

 

 

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By mumpin
10th Nov 2012 17:08

Coming Down!

Bob said:

When we launched Crunchers in 2007 (positioned as a bookkeeping brand) we were hoping accountants would work with us. The idea was we would set-up the financial systems, do bookkeeping and management accounts. The accountant would take it forward with year-end accounts, tax planning and added value business advice.

But, instead of going up and adding value most accountants are looking to protect their position and come down into bookkeeping. So, we are going up into accounting to take them on.

He's really nailed me to a "T" there!

If one of my clients is paying £500 a year to a bookkeeper then I want that £500 in my pocket. My rationale is that when doing the bookkeeping I'll be much quicker than a less trained individual. This is due to my knowing exactly what is needed and avoiding any extra work by exercising what used to be called "Managerial Discretion". In addition I'll save the 2 hours spent reviewing the bookkeeper's work for tax issues, anomolies, areas needing clarification, etc. I think that this is how you run a profitable practice when dealing with micro-businesses.

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10th Nov 2012 18:48

AVN

@Chris - yes, I learned a lot from AVN (having introduced them to a firm where I was the marketing partner) and I'm happy to admit that AVN influences what I do in Crunchers.

I accept that business advice is only valuable to businesses that can use the advice and like you we got rid/sold £100k of fees. 

The reason I am so critical of a time/cost based approach to pricing is that business owners (especially start-ups and micro businesses) are missing out on valuable advice which accountants should be delivering. And,the reason they are not getting what they need is because accountants have not adopted a VP mindset. If they did they would innovate more and find ways to deliver the added value. 

One of my bug-bears is way too much of the clients money is spent just completing accounts at the year-end because the clients bookkeeping is poor quality. But, based on the work I have done with firms I estimated 50%-75% of the work could be eliminated. Doing this frees up time to start delivering added value. 

And, there are other ways to deliver added value/knowledge based services in a way that the smallest firm can afford it. For example, we are putting together a video based business development programme and building tools for them to use.

Bob Harper

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10th Nov 2012 19:43

Who has the lack of understanding?

 

“We all have differing styles - acting for subbies would be slow torture for me; helping a client set up job costing systems might do the same for you.”

I act for subbies and I help clients set up job costing systems. One of my clients has a very sophisticated job costing system.

Another client has, in practice, a very useful job costing system but suffers from several problems:

project managers don’t like to get their estimates approved and the owner seems incapable of insisting on approval,

they quote based on normal delivery timetables and then customers leave it until the last minute to give the go ahead and then the prices go up when they need rushed deliveries, and

customers refuse to pay in advance but promise to pay as soon as the project is delivered but last minute alterations to jobs are not  adequately evidenced and when the invoice is submitted there are substantial delays getting them approved and my client seems to be incapable of saying “pay the original £40,000 and we can discuss the extra £500”.

My client’s problem is that they are too customer focused and don’t protect their own position.

I see nothing difficult or wrong in dealing with both types of clients and pricing accordingly.

“The reason I am so critical of a time/cost based approach to pricing is that business owners (especially start-ups and micro businesses) are missing out on valuable advice which accountants should be delivering.”

Very few accountants base their prices solely on cost. You seem to be hung up on something that rarely happens in practice. Whatever methods of pricing are used, accountants still advice their clients when appropriate and useful. They just refrain from stating the obvious.

“And,the reason they are not getting what they need is because accountants have not adopted a VP mindset. If they did they would innovate more and find ways to deliver the added value.”

I don’t see why pricing based on what you say is value pricing – despite not being able to say what it is – stops accountants from innovating or delivering what clients want or need.

 “One of my bug-bears is way too much of the clients money is spent just completing accounts at the year-end because the clients bookkeeping is poor quality. But, based on the work I have done with firms I estimated 50%-75% of the work could be eliminated. Doing this frees up time to start delivering added value.”

If clients bookkeeping quality is poor then accountants address that matter no matter what they pricing methodology.

“And, there are other ways to deliver added value/knowledge based services in a way that the smallest firm can afford it. For example, we are putting together a video based business development programme and building tools for them to use.”

I was at an event recently and I had a discussion with another sole practitioner about providing videos as one method of informing clients and potential clients. None of what you are suggesting is unknown to accountants. Different clients are receptive to different media.

From what Bob says about Crunchers it would appear that they are the people who don't have an understanding of their market.

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.

Glad to see Crunchers is such a success bob, and its all other accountants fault for not doing what you tell them to do.

The mad crazy fools.

Thanks for the entertainment while my Mrs gets ready to go out. 

For once I have enjoyed the delay!

 

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By marks
11th Nov 2012 00:53

everyone does it their way

At the end of the day Bob you go whatever way you want though from what I can undestand you have been going since 2007, have totally changed your business and now are working with one practice that has built up 30 clients in a year - woopee doo!!!!!!! (I have more than that in less than a year and I still work full time with an accounting practice and service my own clients in my own time).

From what I can see probably about 95% of people on here do things differently from what you are saying we should do.

As said before at the end of the day most of us on here I think deal with small sole traders/limited companies who are just out to make a living, ensure they meet their statutory obligations and try to minimise their tax liability within the law.  Yes there will be the odd entrepreneur out there who wants to grow their business and take over the world and who would benefit from value added services but in my experience these people are in the minority.

One thing to be said is that you certainly stir up interest (over 140 comments on this thread now).

Let crunchers develop whatever your strategy is now and come back and lets see where you are in 2017. 

As said earlier I still think your comments are arrogant and argumentative.   Yes, we dont know the tone that you are speaking in given all we can go with is the words.  It is how you lay out your response that gives that impression.  Reminds me of an old boss who when he reviewed letters would often say "oh, we need to soften that a bit"

All the best

Mark

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11th Nov 2012 09:53

Specific

 

@Mark – there is nothing wrong dealing with subbies, or any other clients for that matter. VP does not mean business advice must be included in the service. However, the point is that there are many clients who would benefit from advice and they don’t get it.  

VP means focussing on value and my criticism is that accountants don’t do this because of their pricing/business model. They focus on their costs and margins first and clients second.

Not sure if you read this but an example of time/cost pricing working against the client is accountants charging too much just completing accounts at the year-end. The excuse is that the client’s bookkeeping is poor. But, based on the work I have done with firms I know client’s bookkeeping can be significantly improved.

What’s needed to improve the bookkeeping is a commitment to value, systems and skills. These are not developed with a time/cost based mindset because it does not reward the accountant.

Specifically:

·         A commitment to deliver the result at a lower price

·         Sales and marketing skills to persuading clients to improve their books

·         The right financial system for the client

·         Client training and management systems

I have no idea about your old boss was talking about, I felt your post was soft.

Me arrogant – no, argumentative? Yes.

Feel free to track Crunchers but I expect it to be slow for 10 years and remember size doesn’t matter.

You can impress me by telling me what you do for your clients, not what they do for you.

@Peter – you don’t see because you have time based billing blinkers on. Finishing reading the book and I can have a discussion.

But, one key difference is that you and the other accountant will talk about videos, I am doing them.

Crunchers is for accountants who understand VP, choose the added value with business advice and prefer to work with like minded accountants rather than on their own.

@YouReallyShouldn’t – success and failure is decided at the finishing line. There was a false start and the gun goes off in April 2013 but I think we are in different stadiums.

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11th Nov 2012 10:06

"you don’t see because you

"you don’t see because you have time based billing blinkers on. Finishing reading the book and I can have a discussion."

I don't bill based on time in the vast majority of situations and neither do the vast majority of accountants. Constantly repeating a lie doesn't make it true but what do we expect from a salesman like you?

"But, one key difference is that you and the other accountant will talk about videos, I am doing them."

You are? Your website mentions videos but the area is blank.

By the way, I was reading one of your blogs and your comments show that you don't understand statistics!

http://www.portfoliomarketing.co.uk/uncover-your-uniqueness/

 

"To explain how to bring out uniqueness let’s pretend we are running a Keep Fit business and there are 9 competitors in our area.

At the moment the odds of winning are 1:10.

The idea with uniqueness is that it immediately improves the odds. If our Kit Fit business is perceived as different then there are really only two choices; ours or one of the other 9. The odds are now 2:1 and that’s a massive improvement."

Every time you quoted odds you got it wrong!

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11th Nov 2012 10:34

Here we go

@Peter - calling me a liar and trying to use salesman as an insult shows your attitude/mindset.

My comments are my opinions, not lies. You don't get them because you don't understand where I am coming from because you've bought a book and not read it.

You may not bill time in terms of recording every minute and charging an explicit hourly rate. My guess is you probably use some form of fixed pricing, but this is not VP. Using a calculator to work out a price based on the job is not VP.

As regards the odds - the 9 competitors are grouped as one choice because they are all the same. The unique business is the other choice - this gives 1:2 chance.

Do you get it?

Bob

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By BKD
11th Nov 2012 10:54

Odds

Bob Harper wrote:

 The unique business is the other choice - this gives 1:2 chance.

Which means that the odds are not 2:1

Do you get it?

(Hint: the odds have a degree of symmetry ;¬)  )

 

Even then, it's not that straightforward. In a 2-horse race the odds may appear to be 1-1. But which one are you going to back - the 3-legged donkey (Crunchers) or the fully-fit thoroughbred?

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11th Nov 2012 11:08

3-legged

BKD wrote:

But which one are you going to back - the 3-legged donkey (Crunchers) or the fully-fit thoroughbred?

I think you are right about the 3-legged one - see http://www.portfoliomarketing.co.uk/portfolio/

There's Crunchers Franchise, Crunchers Sole Trader and Crunchers Online and that's without mentioning the "Accountant Advisor" that doesn't seem to be ready yet. By the way, Crunchers Sole Trader seems to still be very back bedroom - there's nothing wrong with that because that is how I started but now I have a purpose built office.

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11th Nov 2012 10:57

Very odd

@BKD - I am not a turf accountant so it doesn't matter to me which way you swing. Call it 1:2 or 2;1 the point is that being unique significantly improves your chances.

Bob

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11th Nov 2012 11:02

Who is the one with the lack of understanding?

"calling me a liar and trying to use salesman as an insult shows your attitude/mindset.

My comments are my opinions, not lies. You don't get them because you don't understand where I am coming from because you've bought a book and not read it."

You may not bill time in terms of recording every minute and charging an explicit hourly rate. My guess is you probably use some form of fixed pricing, but this is not VP. Using a calculator to work out a price based on the job is not VP."

I don't think many accountants bill based on time but you repeat that. Whether it is lies or another example of your lack of understanding is a moot point.

Now you seem to want to argue as if I am saying that because I don't bill based on time I am saying that I use VP. I think I am the same as most accountants in that I don't use VP and I don't bill on time. I have fixed prices but my billing may be adjusted if clients drastically change what work is needed.

From what you have said in the past and what you have said now it would appear that, instead of accountants being the one's lacking in understanding, it would appear to be you. More Software got it wrong and so has Crunchers. You keep saying that accountants bill based on time but I think that is wrong also.

Regarding odds: 1 out of 10 is 9-1 against (not 10-1 against) and 1 out of 2 is evens (or 1-1) and not 2-1 or 1-2.

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11th Nov 2012 11:18

Getting it right is best

"Call it 1:2 or 2;1 the point is that being unique significantly improves your chances."

It's 1:1 when you are one of two.

Being uniquely bad doesn't increase your chances. Spouting out as if you are knowledgeable but being wrong only scares people away.

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