Anyone else here the News or see the reports in several papers last weekend about the working practices at the Chinese manufacturers of ipads & iphones? try The Mail &/or The Guardian
There are obviously many facets to this topic, including whether, like the banks, manufacturers should pay a greed levy but how about us, the consumers, the ones who feed it, the ones who must have the latest box with the prettier screen or extra buttons, will this make us sit up and penalise the manufacturers by not buying, or even sending back, or do we just shrug our shoulders and say "that's business"?
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sim only
Both my wife and my own mobile phone contracts were up for renewal renewal recently. We were both pretty happy with the phones we had. I am usually sat in my home office and using my computer. I don't take my phone with me unless I expect to use it. Why would I want a tablet or a bigger screen phone. I don't use my phone as a smart phone.
We decided to get sim only contracts for £4.25 a month rather than the £30 we were paying previously. If we really need to get a new phone in the future we will buy it like other equipment.
The world is a dark and terrible place Paul ....
probably best you stay at home. I think back to year-ends in industry ... I think I could have topped 96 hours in some months gone by (and it was unpaid!). There are people living on rubbish dumps in the world; pick your ethical crusade targets a bit more carefully I would suggest.
To answer the question though ... of course we don't 'need' any of this stuff.
We all have our own interests
"There are people living on rubbish dumps in the world; pick your ethical crusade targets a bit more carefully I would suggest."
Let him pick what targets he wants. It makes him feel better!
Live your own way
I think the main point of being self employed is you can live your life your own way subject to what your clients need you to do for them.
I don't worry about how objects get made. I eat chicken and other animals but if anybody said that to eat chicken a chicken had to be killed I wouldn't eat it. When it's dead on the shelves I don't worry most of the time - it would have been killed without anybody thinking about me.
'Nowt as tasty as a boiled budgie'
Shades of Monty Python here methinks
"Eeeh when I were a lad..."
The point about i-whatevers is not the manufacturing, but what they are doing to business. Last year Gartner reported that 90% of IT purchase decisions were made based on research from the web, and if you look at the raft of apps that are around to let you compare prices at all the shops within a five mile radius, just by scanning a barcode, find a restaurant, do social networking etc. you realise that life is transforming.
Steve Jobs is credited with saying at the iPad launch that "nothing we do to day will be the same in five years". OK that may be a bit of hype, but just look at how things have change din the last two decades, and you realise that you can either complain about the big waves of change coming across the horizon, or go get your surfboard.
I think you have to pick your battles Paul or ....
you would just go mad. The world is too big and there are too many injustices for any one person to concern themselves with all of them.
Personally, I eat meat but I am pretty fanatical that the animals are raised in as natural a way as possible and slaughtered correctly. I live in a farming environment so feel I have control over this. I never buy meat from a supermarket. I support animal charities and probably the only thing that upsets me would be animal abuse.
The flip-side is I ambivalent to many of your concerns about global warming, am generally disinterested in human welfare issues and love love love old, polluting cars!!!
I fully appreciate that my outlook is flawed but I am an overwhemingly positive person and enjoy my live. I only get one after all!
Thoughts
Steve, I totally agree with you about animals except I would gladly press a button if it meant no animals were killed for food, ornaments, or clothes, etc.
Big, I am pleased about the advances in technology and the internet but sometimes people buy things because they can not because they will be useful to their lives.
IPads/Phones from China and other countries
I consider that it is not generally our business where and how things are made. We look in horror (if we waste our time) at sensationalist programmes on children of say, 7, making clothes or luxury goods for the West's enjoyment. Those children are working in a culture that is nothing like ours and they are helping their overlarge family to survive. In 1832 we stopped sending children up chimneys and in 1833 The Factories Act prevented children under 9 working in factories. More importantly, we also started limiting the size of our families. It is not so many years ago that we were as bad and it is up to other countries to "catch up", or not, as it is their business. Meanwhile we have the wherewithall to treat animals in the food chain much better. As for eating neighbours' pets? Needs must when the devil drives but to go that far? What was wrong with growing vegetables and eating them? We dont need meat - in the War there really wasn't any (I remember!). As for staged African babies with runny noses, limpid huge eyes and flies walking on them? I will give money for birth control but not for food.
TheAncientOne
Money for birth control
The thing is you are pitting your meagre funds against the awe-inspiring wealth of the Catholic church and the enormous power of Joseph Ratzinger (known by his nickname "The Pope").
Mind you, I agree we should try.
I agree with the ethical shopping thing
If you don't like the way a company/country does its business then you shouldn't buy their products. Fortunately I already have an iPod and Apple doesn't sell anything else worth buying, but it is not always that easy; how do you boycott the USA, for example?
Sorry, forgot to answer the question
No, iPhones and iPads are not essential to life; why would they be when there are so many superior and cheaper alternatives?
I would find it hard to get by without a smart phone but see no use for a tablet computer for myself yet.
@Steve
Very interesting that you are concerned about animal rights but not human rights. Not saying right or wrong, just interesting.
I know, I find it bizarre!
My wife is the same though, so its not just me! Having had numerous personality type tests over the years I score off the board on emotional resilience; the flip side is I assume that everyone else is the same so I have no empathy with people who make poor choices or who suffer from 'emotional' problems. It made me spot on for head of HR as otherwise you would end up in a straight jacket with all the employee problems that arise!! Animals don't get the choice thing so I guess I see them as more vulnerable and worthy or protection.
I think in a different life I would have made a brilliant hit-man with a sniper rifle. Again my wife is similar but her chosen weapon (according to her) would have been a pick-axe handle. She is an HR consultant by the way.
We are really nice people in real life though!
Individuals or UN
“Peter (I think) made an interesting point about the difference between killing an animal first rather than buying from a supermarket and I think that is true of most people, ie many would not be able to catch, kill and gut an animal but they are OK to pay others to do it.”
I’m not OK to pay others to do it.
My point is that it has been killed already. Unless a vast majority of others joined in, my actions wouldn’t have any effect on any animals.
I’d happily support any proposal to outlaw any killing or suffering of animals for any purpose – even medical research which has a lot of logic behind it.
“To put it another way, if you walk through town with loads of litter, would you dump your own thinking that your small bit won't matter, or do you take it home or put it in a bin?”
I think in that case it does make things worse so it does matter.
It’s different to the following cases:
“The fact that child labour is being undertaken in a country where it is still the norm should not, to my mind, mean I should encourage or perpetuate it. How about if you discovered a factory in your town employing illegal immigrant kids as slaves, would you buy their products? How about if you visited a fish & chip shop a few years back and they were selling cockles from Morcombe Bay at half the normal price, and you knew why, would you jump at the chance or turn away?”
In these cases your individual decision wont make any difference. It would be better to tell the police.
I am sceptical about the UN but I think they should be more concerned about democracy and child and animal abuse. Rather than some countries feeling they have to take action at a late stage, I would prefer the UN to introduce sanctions against all cases of abuse. Acceptable and unacceptable behaviour should be set out in a charter and the UN should advise countries on how to change before introducing sanctions. The UN shouldn’t pick and choose who to confront but they should have a programme in place for all countries who are less than perfect. This is a much better way than relying on individuals or action against a select few who overstep the mark in a big way.
Sounds like me!
What's interesting here, is that whilst they have to learn (rather than feel) social interaction with other humans, in order to get by, they can connect, sometimes fanatically, with animals. As mentioned above, it is easier to feel compassion for animal welfare perhaps because you don't have to form any relationship with them?
Bit profound for a Monday morning ... but interesting none the less. Odd thing (but perhaps not) is that looking back at corporate life the sucessful people tended to exhibit similar personality profiles to my own. i.e. low empathy, high self-resiliance and high goal orientation i.e. ends are more important that means. I remember feeling after 10 years that it was probably healthier for me to leave as it doesn't make you a very nice person!
very interesting discussion
Hi
I was really surprised to learn that some of you guys are so compassionate. Most of the people I know (99%? men and women) are carnivorous knuckle-draggers who think third world kids should be thankful for the work.
I am a veggie, still dabbling with veganism (but can't cook very well so slope back to veggie quite often). I also bawl my eyes out when watching Children in Need etc. Pity about all the corruption surrounding donations though!
I am planning to donate a small percentage of my profits to charity (when I make any) - but it will be mainly animal charities eg WWF CFAW or whatever, and maybe a few UK based ones. I feel that people charities do get a lot of support already, but I can't rule them out completely without alienating some potential clients. For example, I know that the reserves of some of the larger charities run to tens and tens of millions, so I'm not going to lose too much sleep over them. Animals though, get a really rough deal from us (overbreeding) humans, and the oceans are a mess etc. So I think it's important to try and do something - as long as they don't send me the gory literature because I can't stand looking at it.
I think the modern world has gone a bit gadget crazy - I usually only replace something through need (BlackBerry to pick up emails on the go) or when it's broken. Panorama next week is examining the illegal export of waste TVs to dump in poor African countries.
Anyway, just wanted to share.
Eve
Not much to add, but...
Like Eve I think this is an interesting discussion, everyone has been very honest and frank in their arguments about their concerns and behaviour - I like this!
I just wanted to say, that having been to India and Nepal where we/the UN have been instrumental in banning child labour, it has not had the effect I think everyone had hoped for. Having spoken to natives about it, I learned that while the police are instructed to enforce the new laws against child labour, no one, no authority or person, ever gave families the means to replace the income from their working children. Over time, this has resulted in extreme poverty, extreme begging measures (an Indian caste now outlawed in India but rife in Nepal who maim and disfigure their own children in order to secure money begging from tourists) and lots of children being abandoned by their families and now haunting the streets sniffing glue and stealing.
It's not a pretty sight, and it makes me think that we/the UN did not do enough to look at the bigger picture. Sure, child labour is wrong, but earning money is important for families in these countires, and we didn't help them learn other ways to do that.
In South America I believe they have the right balance: kids go to school for 2-3 hours a day and the rest of the time they work with their families (under their care and supervision). It means kids of all ages get an education and the family gets to earn money. More importantly, from what I witnessed there, the family are together, and they are all the better for it. They are happy and united, and as an aside, they don't care for or need iPads or Smartphones. In fact, the children I met were quite content with a bottle of bottles and a slinky. It was refreshing!
Pick a fight you can win
Firstly, you can't and wont change the world, and no one cares if one individual doesnt buy the latest bit of kit because of child exploitation, so pick a fight you can win, or at least make a difference.
Second, make sure there actually is a problem that needs addressing, not just some myth. So called "global warming" is merely a myth so driving electric cars and so on isnt going to solve a problem that doesnt exist.
Worrying about 3rd world countries and global warming, and wringing your hands whilst convincing yourself that "we're all doomed" is pointless.
I believe in actually getting involved and doing something, not merely deluding yourself by thinking that depriving yourself of ipads, will bother anyone. One project I've been involved in for 30+ years is the anti death penalty fight in Americva, and we are making headway. Proving that over 100 totally innocent people have been wrongly executed is a powerful argument and several states are considering abolishing the death penalty despite the barbaric wish for "retribution" demanded by the average american.
Defending those who are actually victims and not criminals is another lifelong crusade which, although I can never "change the world", does mean I can change individual lives.