Are you looking for a really good client database that can manage contact details, deadlines, documents etc?

Hi, I am the Access developer who Nick referred to and I have registered with Accountancy Web in order to help provide feedback to interested members. I have an accounting background with a degree in Accountancy and have held relevant positions in both private practice and for large blue chip organisations before going into I.T. software.

The proposed system would be an application in its own right, running on either a standalone pc or a local network. It would be integrated with MS Office, capable of importing and exporting data to Word, Excel etc.

While Nick will handle accountancy-related queries, if any of you have questions of a technical nature, please feel free to either post them here or contact me directly and I will endeavour to answer them comprehensively for you.

Best regards,
James Franklin

www.highrisehq.com

Just enough CRM to be useful, and it follows you around.

NeilW

Neil, is that designed for accountants? Does it track deadlines etc? Can you see directors details and track jobs within a specific limited company?

Thanks for the comments. Most interesting.

If you have done this before, even a few years ago, could I have a look please? My email address is nick@yorkshireaccountancy.co.uk.

I'm still not convinced that there is a low cost (or even free) tailored solution for accountants. We do not have standard requirements that these online and by first looks the MS one have.

I think your concept is excellent. Wish I had thought of it myself, dash it!!!

I have recently established my own small Practice having worked in various 2/3 Partner firms for 25 years using products like IRIS, Viztopia (VPM), Sage etc and although each of these can be successfully implemented if you have the time and financial resources they are out of reach for the smaller firm or sole practitioners.

I have played about with Excel spreadsheets to do all this but they became a MONSTER. I have searched the internet for product but keep coming back to the mainstream expensive ones. Products like Sage ACT could perhaps do some of this but it's clearly directed towads a sales driven environment.

I also use the excellently priced VT for accounts production and Moneysoft Payroll Manager for bureau processing. Another excellent and low priced product I use is '44Time' for time recording. All of these products are within reach of smaller practitioners like myself who are cost conscious but do not wish to comprimise on functionality.

I will leave the technical stuff for you IT based guys to debate over and to be honest have no interest beyond 'does it do what it says on the box'.

As a start up Practice with an already huge workload and very little time to invest in setting up systems of this nature If this is the end result then I would glady part with £200 and please can I have my copy last week!

Good luck with it.

Andrew James

Hi Nick, not really an answer to your question, rather an observation from my own experience.

Back about 100 years ago I had the same idea, it was driving me mad keeping various client relevant databases (both in & out of applications) as well as project management type data to track & monitor job progress against legal & client expectations (as well as around holidays etc etc).

As it happens we used Iris for accs prep at the time and in the middle of discussions & meetings with a software developer attempting to build my wonder database/project management database, Iris came up with their Practice Management module and covered 90% of what I needed. N years later this is now at 105%.

I am a sole practitioner and use all the iris suite (under a "starter pack"), the ability now to go to one place for everything "client" ie from a phone number, latest query on their accounts, when I submitted the tax return, what has to be done this week etc etc, is what the doctor ordered. It is not cheap but in what I can now achieve in using it, the cost is easily justifiable.

As I say, my experience, good luck

Apologies for the inconvenience, but I have had to split this reply into 2 parts, as it exceeds the 2000 character limit.

JC, thank you for your comments.

To be honest, I am not sure I really understand your post. You seem to be comparing this idea with MS Office Accounts Express/Pro which is an accounts package (and from what I hear a rather flawed one) aimed at the small business SAGE market.

What we are proposing here is NOT an accounts package. It is Practice Management solution to assist you in managing your portfolio of clients. The idea is to bring together all the information on a client you need, including CRM contact information, work done (what, when completed, by whom, deadlines, notes etc.), work to be done, contact history, document management e.g. letters sent and (optionally) received, plus the ability to link directly to organisations or individuals related to that client e.g. if your client is a company you may also do some of the directors' personal tax returns.

The system will also automatically generate tasks that repeat each year/quarter etc and warn you of upcoming deadlines etc.

To answer some of the specific points you have raised:

## “Access is probably the wrong too for the job and anyway there are issues with different Access runtime versions resident on the same pc”

Firstly, there are no issues with different runtime versions, provided they are managed properly. (The thread you mentioned is caused by databases with incorrectly written references.) Secondly, Access is specifically designed for front-end/back-end applications where the code is separate from the data. How else would you propose to design a data application where multiple users may be involved?

(cont.)

Thanks Ken and Rob. This is exaclty what I had hoped. Exchanging ideas etc.

Lets speak or exchange emails next week and take this project forward.

Any others???

Paul. Thanks for the post.

When people come onto Accounting Web asking for Payroll software 30-40 users all immediatly reply - Moneysoft Payroll Manager!

When people come onto Accounting Web asking for Accounts production software 30-40 users all immediatly reply - VT Accounts!

My point is that there is no equivalent Client Manager system and I have wondered why for ages!!

I have used IRIS and firstly it did too much and secondly was very VERY expensive - they wanted over £5k in the second year.

Also not everyone wants to use IRIS or Digita or PTP etc. Like me lots of firms are delighted with VT, Drummohr, Moneysoft etc.

I would just like a client manager system that did what it should for accountants.

## “Because the software market in general is either moving towards Sql Server”

This is completely inaccurate. Access and SQL Server are two different products, and the decision as to which is best to use is based on scale. In this scenario, where we are looking at single user/single pc, or small numbers of users, on a local network, with relatively small amounts of data, SQL server is inappropriate, unnecessarily expensive and requires more specialised setup & day-to-day maintenance at the user’s end. How many members here would know how to set up a SQL server database? Access is designed to comfortably handle up to 10 concurrent users, with data tables of over a million records, and a 2GB file size limit (which can be got around if it were necessary.) Larger organisations with greater data requirements than this would be advised to use SQL server. (For the record, I am also a SQL server database developer.)

## “Can you compete with the 'slick' look & feel produced by the likes of M$ and what is the development time - 6-9 months?”

If written properly, a user could be completely unable to determine that an application is using Access. Our application will look ‘slick’ and will appear as an application in its own right. Development time will obviously be determined by the final specification (which you are all entitled to contribute towards) but should be in the region of 4-6 weeks.

## “Presumably from your comments about running over a network it would be multi-user; in which case you need to address half sensible locking with commit/rollback “.

Yes, the system is designed to be multi user. I tend to prefer completely sensible record locking to half sensible. When you talk about commit/rollback, you are referring to transactions. These are used when a series of data changes are mutually dependent on each other, such as posting an accounting journal. Should an error occur at any point in the series, the whole transaction is rolled back.

As stated previously, this is not an accounting package, so the demand for these transactions is likely to be limited. However, as with ANY database, wherever there is a need to ensure data consistence, we will use transactions.

I hope this clears up any points rasised by JC’s post, but if anyone has further questions, please do not hesitate to ask.

James

I'd love the sort of system you are proposing. Likewise, I am using VT, Drummohr and Moneysoft Payroll. Never could find a suitable database even though what I want is relatively simple. Can't afford a bespoke system, and all the off-the-shelf (non-accountancy specialist) general packages just don't do it. What I found to be the main thing missing was recurring tasks - time and time again, you had to set enter a "new" task when all you really need is to copy it with dates set a year later! Sage, IRIS, etc are out of the question as I am happy with existing software and wouldn't change to theirs. I have been using the ACCA practice manager for just over a year and to be honest am unhappy with it as it is "too big" and geared up for much larger practices - it is more of a hindrance that a help.

Bring it on!!! I'd gladly be part of it and pay my share!

What I really must see though is proper integration with email, both incoming and outgoing. We use email for most of our client communication and a seamless method of tracking emails within the database itself is of paramout importance. This is another area that is hard to find. I don't want to have to continue manually copying emails from Outlook into the practice database. We'd need an automatic system to transfer or preferably full email in's and out's directly within practice manager so that we don't have to use Outlook.

I too would be interested.

I've thought about the ACCA's Practice Manager, but this is quite expensive....

James

Regrettably unable to provide an example of the previous application, does not belong to me (done for one of big 6). However, the spec was broadly in line with your proposal (client progress tracking, raising events, deadlines, exception reporting etc)

The M$ Accounts app was not used as a comparison but more of a benchmark on approach etc. because whether one likes it or not M$ set the standards

Access - from the response about de-coupling code & data it seems as though Access is being used for both aspects; although the detail on this is a bit vague? If code and data are bound in a single wrapper (Access) how do you propose to make bug fixes/updates/enhancements ?

Nevertheless confused about the statement '.. How else would you propose to design a data application where multiple users may be involved? ..'

SQL Server/Access - maybe, but not necessarily a matter of scale
- Expense it not an issue because Express version is free and multi-user
- Setup is the domain of developer combined with a 'one-off' automated seemless installation procedure
- User day-to-day maintenance - confused because this should not really be necessary (backups Ok - but maintenance ?)

4-6 Weeks to specify, develop, test & release an industry acceptable application with sufficient functionality & 'look & feel' to be a robust product is ambitious

However here are some historic references to look at:
Guide to Visual Basic 4 (Que ISBN: 0-7897-0465-x) - all code etc. on disc
- Client Server Contact Manager

Access 2 Developers Guide (SAMS ISBN: 0-672-30453-8) - all code etc. on disc
- Access Time & Billing
- Access Training Database
- Access Accounting Application

The above may be old but they are proven examples of complete systems which run out of the box (for free). The event driven examples are probably best because they have the in-built flexibility to fit your model and cover client details(CRM), client events (i.e. deadlines, completed etc), contact history etc....

In fact latterly I recall seeing M$ examples (free) somewhere, for web based generic contact management & help desk software (events driven) - again these could be amended to fit, with a bit of effort - this may assist http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/express/bb403186.aspx

This is something we have also been discussing at The Accountants Circle as it is exactly the sort of thing our membership is about - contributing to resources for developings tools to meet practical needs of accountants.

It will be a little different to what Nick and James are suggesting, as we are commencing development on an online system using Net 2.0 and SQL Server for the data storage.

Obviously there are a lot of considerations, just some already mentioned here but if it is something anyone would like input on or to find out more information please do drop me a line - david.toohey@accountantscircle.co.uk

Kind regards

David Toohey
The Accountants Circle

and lots of different threads all wrapped up!

why get bogged down in the techie details? What is important here is surely functionality rather than the programming language or database engine? Actually what is more important even than that is how easy it is to get everyone in a practice to use it. These sort of products tend to fail because of user resistance.

There is enough response here to suggest that (1) there are people out there that would look at it, and (2) there is not much out there like it! And actually I reckon there is also enough to help you put together a relatively good functional spec.

JC raises a good point about development time (and don't forget to include testing in that) - if you take too long your potential customers will lose interest.

And why not pick up on an emerging theme - and deliver it as SaaS.

I'd second that. I do not understand the techie side of the discussion. I think all we need is a simple but comprehensive client manager solution.

Online systems may be are the future but they will always be a bone of contention with some. The Accountants Circle site for example is very slow, so will that mean the client manager will also run very slow? Also certain people will always have security concerns. No matter how good.

My initial feeling about an online solution for this is why would I need to access this from my laptop on the beach or from an internet cafe somewhere? The only places I would every access MY client records are at home or work and MS Access would work nicely for these requirements.

I have also heard concerns that not many people have Access. Not sure I agree with this either. I would bet that 99% of accountants have a copy of MS Office.

I'm keen to hear more about what users would require the system to do as opposed to the techie stuff.

Look forward to some more responses...

1. I would be interested,

2. I have MS Office

3. I don't have Access (never really used it, so seemed a waste to have it).

MS Access is actually a collection of products. It is convenient to think of it as a desktop database management tool, as it combines a database engine (JET) with a report writer and an SQL graphical query tool (and don't forget its macro language). BUT it also contains VBA (which is a subset of visual basic), and many other programming tools and applications contain hooks into Access (e.g. Excel).

For the developer (application or database) this means you can do lots of great stuff with it, and M$ kindly prove a free runtime engine which means that if you build something that is self contained in Access you can distribute it to an audience that do not have a M$Access licence.

So whilst other database engines are popular, there is a wide raft of applications built in a variety of application languages which make use of the underlying Access database engine. And whilst it does have issues with multiple users, it does support them. Which probably explains it continuing popularity.

None of this really matters, but actually Access would be a good tool to deliver the kind of product described in this post.

A couple of interesting points here.

I agree with Alistair that perhaps we are getting a little bogged down in the technical side here, but David Toohey's post raises the alternative of developing a web application.

This is a perfectly legitimate avenue to explore and one that we have given much thought to. I think it is appropriate to set out some of the advantages and disadvantages of this route as opposed to Access, which will help to explain why we think that Access is better suited here.

Advantages of Web:
- can access from any pc.
- no need to install additional software
- all data is off-site (providing a backup facility)
- applicable where users in multiple/remote sites require synchronous data.

Disadvantages:
- Speed. This will depend on a great many factors, most of which will be beyond the control of the user, but it WILL be slower.
- Security & the concerns of users.
- reliance on broadband internet connection
- reliance on ISP
- reliance on the ISP hosting the Practice Management application
- Cost of development, which will be several times higher.

In my opinion, the reliance issues are most pressing. What happens if your connection goes down or the company hosting the system has a problem. Unless the system is developed to work in an 'offline' mode, where data is always stored on your pc and continually synchronised with the web, you will not be able to work. Such systems are more expensive still to develop, and some of the advantages (cannot access from any pc, require software to be installed) are negated.

One other point to make: it would NOT be necesary for users to own a copy of Access as we are licenced to distribute run time versions of Access which the program would run on.

If anyone has any technical questions they would like to post to be directly, as opposed ot on here, please feel free. My email is james@jamesfranklin.co.uk

Best regards,
James

I think James quite clearly outlines the major advantages and disadvantages of the options being discussed.

Some of the disadvantages will certainly be addressed on our side, such as security and speed. Some of these are continually improving with techonology, though what is acceptable to us also changes with this... I no longer accept waiting minutes for a computer tape drive to load a simple programme as I did in the 80s.

From our view and the varied members we have, I think we have to continue looking to the future and where things are headed. Many that we work with operate is different ways, some have practices in the UK but don't reside in the UK, some operate between home and clients, others have a few offices and need staff to access the information from several locations.

James & Nick's proposal does make sense, and is something they are looking to develop specifically for the needs of those contributing to it.

Our situation is not much different, but we have a larger range of practices contributing a much smaller amount. So, our solution must be more flexible to suit more users but can continually be developed and supported without the cost side becoming a significant issue (we also operate offshore so our costs are significantly reduced).

This is why we can consider developing this with the future in mind and possibly develop stand-alone packages with syncronisation in the future, all depends on what our members want. Our limitations on this are time and the contributions made with membership subscriptions.

Until you feel comfortable working online the Access solution is likely to be the way forward, and could probably be transferred or adapted to an online system in the future.

For us, our reputation relys on it too much for us to risk not adequately address the issues of working online.

David Toohey
The Accountants Circle

I’m glad I found this thread. We’re planning on adding a fair amount of Practice Management functionality to the KashFlow Partner Programme early next year. We already have a number of accountants using the Partner Programme software (SaaS) to view and manage their clients account – so it’s a logical extension to add the kind of features discussed below.

Re the disadvantages of a SaaS system. Some of them can be mitigated.

- Speed. This will depend on a great many factors, most of which will be beyond the control of the user, but it WILL be slower.
There’s a lot that can be done to improve the speed – but there will always be potential problems out of the hands of the user and the vendor

- Security & the concerns of users.
This is an emotional reaction. Data is far more secure on properly configured and protected servers than it is on your desktop. But just because it’s an emotional reaction doesn’t mean it’s not an issue.

- reliance on the ISP hosting the Practice Management application
This can be done away with. By the end of the week we should have a solution in place so that even if the datacenter explodes, we’re able to bring up another server with a real-time synchronized copy of the data and software within minutes.

- Cost of development, which will be several times higher.
Really? I’m surprised at this comment. I’d have put “Cost of development is lower” as an advantage.

many years ago - so just a few comments

Is Access just the db engine or are you proposing to write the code in Access as well? If it is the latter then Access is probably the wrong too for the job and anyway there are issues with different Access runtime versions resident on the same pc (see another thread in Aweb)

Code & data should not really be so closely coupled and with this in mind, if M$ is your preferred platform, the code should probably be written in some version of Visual Studio on a NET 2.0 framework (soon to be NET 3)

The choice of Access is interesting because the software market in general is either moving towards Sql Server (express is free) or some form of OpenSource database such as MySQL. Nevertheless the database engine is largely irrelevant provided data and code are separate

On the price side you could well be too expensive at £200. Although this is a fairly 'niche' market there is ever increasing downward pressure on the cost of software (see M$, which offers the Office Accounts Express version for free).

Can you compete with the 'slick' look & feel produced by the likes of M$ and what is the development time - 6-9 months?

Presumably from your comments about running over a network it would be multi-user; in which case you need to address half sensible locking with commit/rollback .... and so on ....

I have read this thread with interest and already contacted the initiator, Nick, offering an online demonstration of our software - HQ, which it seems to me is the solution you are all looking for.

Currently we are the only practice with this software because we have been working with the developers over the past two years building it. We have now agreed to make the software available to fellow practitioners but need a little time to polish it up and package it for the outside world but the product is mature, feature-rich, stable and ready to go.

Information on the "core" product is available on the developer's site at http://www.selestial.com/the-product.html. What we have is HQ+ (or as we are likely to brand it "HQ for Accountants") which is the core product plus our bespoke additions, tailored specifically for our accountancy needs.

Incoming and outgoing emails, notes of telephone conversations, letters, SMS messages and faxes can all be tracked, linked to client histories and searched for in a "google-like" way. There are shared contact records (businesses linked to individuals and vice-versa) and calendars. Also automatically generated job records with progress tracking and deadline exception reporting - covering, accounts and business tax, bookkeeping, payroll, personal tax and (if relevant) financial services jobs.

The pricing is as yet unconfirmed but may be £50 per user per month, with no upfront purchase cost and including support and future upgrades. The software is fully hosted in a secure datacentre (very appropriate in the current climate!) and therefore accessible from any PC anywhere in the world at any time.

If you would be interested in seeing an online demo of the software, please email me at adrian.pearson@pearsonandassociates.co.uk and I will try to oblige.