Casuals or casualties

Casuals or casualties

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Our client , a Sports Club,operates PAYE for two permanent bar staff. The Sports club now has a new kitchen and function room and will offer catering for various celebrations. On those evenings it will be necessary to engage maybe four or six waiting-on staff.
(The chef is self employed and will invoice separately)

The waiters wil typically work for 3 hours and be paid, say, £20. Initially there may only be 12 functions in the first year.
Our client would like to pay cash, as they leave. He does not want the hassle, nor have the on-site administrator, to write payslips, operate OT or BR in different cases.

He will not have regular waiters, just ad hoc recruits ,probably friends and relatives of the Club members
Could we just obtain basic P46 details, operate BR for all waiters,and complete a P38A . Is there a practical alternative?
Suzanne

Replies (8)

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By Malcolm Veall
07th Jun 2007 11:39

O'Kelly
John,

I agree, after O'Kelly, logically it is difficult to see how a casual waiter could be employed.

Incidentally, the Employment Tribunal decision was confirmed by the Court of Appeal, as a decision on each individual appointment being for service rather than of service, (Ie not employment), that a reasonable tribunal could have made on the facts.

John, You are not missing anything but the world and its wife are missing it, because the Revenue Guidance misses it, by giving correct guidance on what to do to process a casual employee without mentioning that a casual may not be an empoyee.

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By AnonymousUser
07th Jun 2007 13:48

Can I ask a supplementary?
If in these circumstances, you pay someone below the LEL and they have no other sources of employment, there is no tax or NI to pay, must you complete the year end p35's . p14's / p60's etc etc.

It seems a lot of paperwork for nil payments?

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By User deleted
05th Jun 2007 15:00

Self-employed chef
No problems with the chef. He has his own business and will bring with him the cooking staff he needs.
This is a new venture and the budget is tight. Also the location is quite rural and remote so local recruits would be better than agency staff.
What do other small pubs and clubs do?

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By AnonymousUser
06th Jun 2007 09:33

Casual workers
If you order a few P46 forms from the IR website, each time you have a new casual - get them to complete it and file with payroll for the permanent staff. You do not need to send them in to the revenue unless you pay more than the LEL in one period, which seems unlikely from what you say. There are no tax/NI implications in such small amounts, so just keep a record of how much each casual has earned and then complete P38's for them at year end.
A BR code will be necessary if they are using their 522 allowance in another employment. If this is the case, you must send the P46 in to the tax office and deduct 22% from the gross each time you pay, and again, keep records which will be needed at year end, as anyone who has tax deducted will need a P14/P60 at year end.

You can avoid the BR code by hiring younger waiters/waitresses who are unlikely to have emplyment elsewhere.

Hope this helps!
Sarah

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By User deleted
06th Jun 2007 11:32

Grey power
Thanks Sarah, although overt ageism is not the best interview attitude.

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Euan's picture
By Euan MacLennan
07th Jun 2007 14:13

Supplementary answer
Simon

If you are paying someone as an employee, you must get them to sign a form P46. If they tick A or B (first job since last 6th April or not first, but now only job) and you are paying them below the NIC LEL, you do not need to complete a P11 deductions sheet and hence, there will be no P14/60 for them and no P35 unless there are other employees paid over the LEL. The only paperwork is to keep the signed P46 as your evidence that no tax deduction was required.

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By GRETTONPARTNERSHIP
06th Jun 2007 16:45

Are the waiters really employed
This seems to be remarkably similar to the employment tribunal case of O'Kelly and Trust House Forte. O'Kelly I understand was a wine waiter and was held for the purposes of employment law to be self employed. I seem to recall he had been treated as employed for tax purposes. The deciding factor seems to have been whether there was any mutuality of obligations.

It may be worth considering. Suzanne will know the full facts of her case better than I do.

If it is felt that the waiters can be self employed it may be worthwhile asking your local tax office for their opinion. It is often better to accept their view rather than have a fight on your hands later.

Or am I misisng something here?

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By AnonymousUser
06th Jun 2007 17:10

I didn't mean to be ageist
I'm certainly not an ageist, but my experience is that younger people are usually the ones who are not too concerned by irregular hours etc. Also, worth noting that NMW is lower for younger people (under 21). Is that ageist? I work part time at my local, and at 33 am considered ancient by my youthful colleagues. All of which are hired purposefully to keep the wage bill down.A saving of £2.05/£0.90 per hour per person can equal a big difference in the catering trade, all our waitresses are aged 16/17 - they come and work behind the bar at 18, and new 16/17 year old are recruited to work the restaurant floor.
Not ageist - just prudent in a notoriously difficult line of business!

Regards
Sarah

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