Clients with bookkeepers

Clients with bookkeepers

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I was just having a converation with a colleague and wondered if our experience of clients who employ/hire bookkeepers is normal.

The vast majority of the bookkeepers seem to be basically rubbish, making a load of basic errors yet thinking they know everything. It even gets to the extent that when we point out the errors to the client, the bookkeepers usually say that it's our error and not theirs. What I also find is that the more contact the client has with the bookkeeper, i.e. the ones who do more hours and on the client's premises, the more likely the client is to believe the bookkeeper before the accountant.

Are these experiences commonplace or have our clients just got unlucky?

Replies (39)

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By Moonbeam
18th Apr 2011 13:25

Your experience is spot on

I have made lots of money in the past by taking over book-keeping from "book-keepers" who were not very bright, poorly trained etc. In their defence their employer had no interest in sending them on training courses or getting their work vetted, probably because he himself did not realise all the VAT/ P11D rules designed to trip us all up.

I have several clients who employ a part-time book-keeper who is intelligent but who has not been properly trainined in the past. I have trained them up to a higher standard and monitor their work, gradually easing off in the cases of the clever ones, so that I just check at year end.

For the small companies, I really don't think they have any idea how complex things can get or how terrifying the fines can be for getting it wrong. There are very few well-trained book-keepers out there who want to spend time on the client's premises, so it's not always easy for the clients.

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By Steve Holloway
18th Apr 2011 13:41

Alliance

 Have to say I think one of the most important alliances you can have is with your cleint's bookkeeper. Where possible I try and influence which bookkeeper is chosen i.e. ones that I work with elsewhere as thay provides some consistency in output for me and also a furtile bed for cross-referrals. Where I can't do this I make sure that I am always supportive of the bookkeeper and show appropriate respect for their work ... I find this reciprocated and rarely have the problems you describe. What I want is the bookkeeper to come to me with problems and to be my eyes and ears during the long periods I am not in touch with the client. Its amazing what some clients will forget to tell you!!!

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By User deleted
18th Apr 2011 13:55

Another vote for spot on

You are far from alone I seem to have spent the majority of my career in professional practice mopping up after incompetant bookkeepers who have clients brainwashed into believing they know exactly what that are doing.

My personal favourite is when bookkeepers tell clients that they can do tax returns for them rather than pay an accountant.  You can imagine the carnage can't you !

Along with IFAs which give poor tax advice, bad bookkeepers are my biggest annoyance in this job.

Rant over.

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By chatman
18th Apr 2011 14:31

I agree with mwngiol and Steve

 I find the general standard is appalling and bookkeepers get very defensive about their work. If you can get a good relationship with them, and get them to come to you with queries before guessing (their preferred approach) you can circumvent most of the problems.

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PAH Accounting Devizes Wiltshire
By Phil Hendy
18th Apr 2011 14:37

Create a relationship

 I am with Steve on this one. I try to always ensure that I am involved in selecting the bookkeper. If not I will try and get to know the clients bookkeeper so that they are not worried about giving me a call or asking for advice. Having a good bookkeeper is really important and making sure they are doing what is best for the client moreso.

There is always the divide and misunderstanding of what each does. I frequent a bookkeeping forum in which accountants are often slated, often incorrectly!

There are bad bookkeepers and bad accountants around!

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By ShirleyM
18th Apr 2011 14:44

Could be worse!

It's worse when the 'very good/excellent' bookkeeper happens to be their wife, girlfriend, son, daughter, etc.  All comments regarding mistakes or lack of knowledge can be taken as personal insults, no matter how tactful you are.

I have also had clients thinking they can save money by getting the bookkeeper to deal with everything. A good bookkeeper that has a good relationship with the accountant will refuse the work, but as we say, they are not all good. The good bookkeepers know their limitations, and know that poaching the accountants clients will not bring any further work their way.

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By cymraeg_draig
18th Apr 2011 14:49

Be positive -

Firstly - it's not just bookkeepers who make a hash of things, I've spent a lot of time over the years sorting out some real howlers by so called accountants (many of them qualified) as well.

Yes there are some bad bookkeepers out there, but generally what they need is a little training and some support. We literally give them a "hotline" number they can call at any time to get free advice from our staff. If something is really bothering them they can drop in without an appointment to ask someone. Over time the holes in their knowledge are filled, and a great working relationship can be built to the benefit of both sides. (We refer work to them, and they refer clients to us).

I think the OP's post is too negative (obviously had a bad day).  Of course bookkeepers deny that they are wrong - what do expect them to do, say they fouled up and offer to pay to put it right before losing their job/client ?

Try being positive, working with them, have a quiet word and sort it out with them.

 

 

 

 

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By mwngiol
18th Apr 2011 14:51

Relationship

I absolutely agree with Steve where that approach is possible, but in the majority of cases I find that it isn't. For some reason clients often seem to appoint bookkeepers without even asking us who we would suggest for them. We have 2 or 3 bookkeepers we work with covering different sectors who really are spot on, and who would phone us to ask questions rather than guess, and who we recommend to any clients who ask. Likewise, they recommend us to clients who don't have an accountant yet or who are unhappy with the one they have.

The reason I was discussing this with a colleague today was because a client brought in their records, prepared by a bookkeeper, and saying that they were spot on because the bookkeeper is fantastic. Quick check showed that bank didn't balance. The reason was that no direct debits/standing orders etc had been entered. Called client to ask for information about some direct debits and was told that we shouldnt need to ask because fantastic bookkeeper had done everything blah blah etc etc. After discussing it with the bookkeeper, client called back saying that direct debits weren't the bookkeeper's responsibility!!

Admittedly not all of them are this bad but surely there's being defensive about your work and then there's trying to dodge responsibilty for being crap??

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PAH Accounting Devizes Wiltshire
By Phil Hendy
18th Apr 2011 15:22

Consider your procedures

As the adviser you should be encouraging your clients to ask you those kind of questions. I would always say to clients that I can recommend a very good bookkeeper etc. and have an idea on who might be right for that client, based on location, sector experience etc.

I think in this scenario I would point out the minimum expectations of the bookkeeping i.e. Bank reconciliation and that your fees will reflect the work the bookkeeper has not done. Or, why not set up a meeting where all three of you attend which can iron out any of the issues and get rid of the blame culture. You can also set up a plan of what the bookkeeper should do in the future for this client.

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By JerryCan
18th Apr 2011 15:23

Bookkeepers should be the accountants and the clients best frien

We are independant bookkeepers  and see ourselves as useful to both client and clients accountant. We  keep our clients books upto date and give them useful information in the here and now, not 18 months down the line! 

 Cash flow prolems? We are the first to know, and  in most cases anticipated the situation. We help. If not enough in the bank to pay VAT we make arrangments with HMRC.  We arrange payment plans with suppliers.   Our clients are all small companies  many of whom swing from good times to poor times and back again, but all work incredibly hard and deserve the best service from bookkeepers and accountants.  We do deal with Companies House and HMRC on behalf of clients with uncomplicated tax affairs but we are the first to say we are not tax experts and call on  accountants as soon as specialist  knowledge is needed.  For our clients who do employ accountants to complete their Company accounts and tax returns we send all the information they require on disc as early as possible.  We contine to give the client managment information while waiting for details of ajustments and other information from the accountants . And we wait and and we wait  and we wait! These accountant are positivley obstructive to us and do a dis-service  to the client. Not all accountants do this and we have excellent relationships with most and we each complement  the others service.

No doubt there are bad bookkeepers and well as bad accountants. There are also bad clients  - I have sacked two with in two years for 'unacceptable' behaviour!  I dont know if the EU have yet introduced law to stop me doing this!

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By cymraeg_draig
18th Apr 2011 15:32

Did you have to mention the EU and spoil my day ?

There are also bad clients - I have sacked two with in two years for 'unacceptable' behaviour! I dont know if the EU have yet introduced law to stop me doing this!

 

Posted by JerryCan on Mon, 18/04/2011 - 15:23

 

If there isn't no doubt there soon will be. We soon wont be able to breath without an EU permit in triplicate issued by some unelected overpaid waste of space europratt.

OK - rant over :)

 

 

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By Steve Holloway
18th Apr 2011 15:53

You must be having a good day CD ...

 your rants today are very shoort and .... not really very rant-like! 

 

I tend to think that if I didn't have the sort of relationship where the client believed what I told them then they might soon have to be an ex-client! Sometimes partners etc are envolved but just be tactful ... I always make a point of having the full journals list on the table while reviewing difficult accounts so the client can see how many adjustments I have had to make. No criticism is needed .. they tend to get the point!

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By jjswjjsw
18th Apr 2011 23:05

Two way street

As a book-keeper qualified with the IAB and with over 10 years experience I hope I know what I'm doing the majority of the time and when to ask for advice. I tend to work on site and yes therefore a client often sees you as a trusted friend. When I was first qualified I certainly didn't feel capable to practice without a strong support network and unfortunately there are an increasing number of courses which promise a new carrer with only a few hours training.I work closely with the Accountant from day one with a client (and get almost all my referrals from Accountants). 

If a client has a particularly complex structure it may be necessary for the Accountant to spend some time on site with the book-keeper to ensure both understand the business and the reporting requirements. Likewise the year end handover notes from the book-keeper are vital to explain why they've posted as they have even if it's not the treatement the Accountant wants. Occasionally my note has said the posting was as directed by the client and I'm happy to let the Accountant have the heated discussion with the client over the correct treatment of the transaction.

Different Accountants want a different level of preparation from the book-keeper and also varying degrees of information provided (full records including 13 months bank statements and data backup or just the data and copies of salient invoices) it's worth explaining which way you work and ensure the book-keeper is consulted when you book the work in your diary not just the client.

I particularly like Steve's comment "I always make a point of having the full journals list on the table while reviewing difficult accounts" it's worth asking if the book-keeper can also attend the meeting as they usually know the accounts better than the client and if I know the adjustments made I can explain my interpretation/treatment of the transaction or amend my allocation for the next year to be more useful to the Accountant - I make a point of asking if there's anything that would help the Accountant but rarely get any directional feedback.  On more than one occasions clients have signed off accounts following their review meeting and when I get the adjustment journals I find an error - Accountants aren't perfect either!

I don't disagree that there are some very poor book-keepers out there who struggle beyond data entry e.g. the example of direct debits; the term book-keeper appears to be a description applying to almost anyone performing a small businesses accounts' - had you been told the data entry had been completed rather than a book-keeper had prepared the records your perception of the work level expected would probably have been different. 

It's important to approach the issues in a constructive manner, telling anyone their work is bad or wrong will put them on the defensive and telling your client they've made a bad job in their choice of book-keeper probably won't go down well either! Instead offer to work alongside the book-keeper and everything could improve, at the very least you will know the likely mistakes in the data set before it arrives! 

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By mwngiol
19th Apr 2011 09:19

Feedback

Thanks for all the feedback folks, I'm a lot calmer this morning!

I do realise that there are good and bad accountants out there just as there are good and bad bookkeepers, and that the relationship between the two is crucial. As I mentioned earlier our relationship with those good bookkeepers is excellent, and even with some of the less able ones we maintain a solid working relationship with regular 2-way communication.

The key factors for me are that bookkeepers who are less able should know their limits and not try to do too much, and certainly shouldn't try to advise clients on matters beyond their ability. Clients who have bookkeepers on their premises regularly will often ask the bookkeeper about some things purely because they are there at the time the question arises. A good bookkeeper who doesn't know the answer will say so and refer the question to the accountant.

But the main thing is mistakes. Everyone makes them. I know I've made some, and it's probably safe to say that I've made some which I'm not even aware I've made! But surely if you make a mistake you should hold your hands up and say so, look at why the mistake happened and learn from it, and move on. My frustration yesterday was down to someone who clearly hadnt done something they should have done (i.e. someone paid to do the bookkeeping should surely balance the bank?), and rather than admit they either forgot to do it or didn't know how to do it tried to say it wasn't their role in the first place. How can it be your role to enter cheque and cash payments but not direct debits?!

Anyway like I said, a lot calmer today, and many thanks again for all the feedback.

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
19th Apr 2011 10:27

That rule should apply to accountants and Bookkeepers

"The key factors for me are that bookkeepers who are less able should know their limits and not try to do too much, and certainly shouldn't try to advise clients on matters beyond their ability."

Hi 

Whilst I do agree with you.  I also think this basic rule should to apply to accountants as well.   I am a Fellow member of ICB and I take my practice very seriously.  I totally agree about the importance of Bank Reconciliations and I have been harping on for years to my clients and some of their accountants about the importance of your bank. 

It was only recently the subject of Bank Reconciliations .   Do you do a Bank Rec ?,  on any answers.  One member first tab mention they do not do bank reconciliations .   I was glad to see the response from a number of other members.

Firstly I would also check if  the accountant is qualified .  I was shocked on another thread to see so many accountants who did not think their membership of a body was important.   I recommend my clients all the time to good accountants,  and a lot of accountants recommend me also for my Sage experience.   I always mention to my clients that they should ring the ICB firstly to check my membership and that they should also do that for an accountant.   I know this could start a debate, from accountants who are qualified by experience.   That is all well and good but I won,t be recommending someone without the qualifications and backup to my client.   At least I have the backup for a client to make a complaint to a professional body if they felt the need.   If someone is just calling themselves an accountant I would be worried about their insurance and if they made mistakes and what the implications would be for my client.  I guess I could call myself a Doctor my experience.  Nobody would have anyway of checking if I had any qualifications.

I have always respected accountants , and the accountants I work with have always respected me.  I am happy to take any advice and learn from an accountant who is a professional member of a body and has their professional Insurance and keeps the CPD training up.  I am not happy to take advice from an accountant who is not a member of a professional body.   At the end of the day, I would be more qualified then someone who is an accountant by experience .  I believe in calling a spade a spade.  I  am just as qualified after 20 years of experience working in industry, CA Practices and I am a Fellow member if the ICB.  I  have all my exams from the IATI in Ireland.    I also spend a lot of money on my own training each year .

The reason I mention about accountants applying the same rules is for example I have met accountants who have no real expertise for example in CIS.   I am not talking about your little decorator.   I mean major contracts and councils, working on self billing and rolling over contracts for a number of years.     I deal with this a lot  and I pick an accountant that I know has loads of real time experience is this work.   I have seen many a question on CIS on any answers where it is clear they do not know what they are doing. 

There are also plenty of areas where not all accountants are experts in a certain  fields.  They might know something about it ,  but so will I.    As you say a good bookkeeper and accountant both should know when it is not their area of expertise and advise their client accordingly, that further expertise is needed .    I have done this for years and I have never lost any business.      I would never poach an another accountants work , or would I expect my clients to be poach when I recommend an accountant.   Maybe I am been old Fashioned but it has worked for me. 

 

 -- Kind Regards Sarah@ Douglas Accountancy & Bookkeeping Services, Glasgow

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By fellowcraft
19th Apr 2011 16:24

Funny that I've just seen this post......

...I've just received job TODAY (y/e 31 July 10) from client with filing deadline of 30 April.

Bookkeeper has already advised client of CT liability, however has failed to take into account WIP, purchase reserves, accruals, retentions etc etc.

Also she has filed the 2x directors SA100's and did not keep copies. She doesn't know what dividends went on them.

 

Oh, and she tells the client that I am rubbish and that any fee over £500 is daylight robbery!

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By JerryCan
19th Apr 2011 16:43

Funny that --

   - -  but it  confirms my point -  there are  bad bookkeepers, bad accountants and bad clients. Hey - Ho!  Makes life interesting.

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By mwngiol
19th Apr 2011 16:55

Funny

Yep I suppose a half decent bookkeeper feels the same when they encounter a crap accountant as a half decent accountant feels when they encounter a crap bookkeeper.

That last post does sum up what I meant though. Trying to do more than they are capable of, stuffing it up, and then badmouthing the accountant.

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By Figurate
19th Apr 2011 19:30

Professional Courtesy
I have several bookkeeping-only clients, where the client has retained their accountant.
In these instances my "policy" is: do not poach the client and don't express a personal opinion on the accountant.

For bookkeeping jobs, I will do the bank rec, payroll rec & VAT reconciliation (but not do the depreciation, accruals/prepayments etc... unless specifically asked) I've noticed that there's no consistency between the various accountants themselves. I've seen some accountants do some very "interesting" things (particularly with factoring accounts and certain aspects of VAT)

The only time I have said something to the client was when a client's accountant (who had been doing the bookkeeping prior to my appointment) underclaimed over £20k of input VAT (which was borne out in the subsequent VAT inspection). And even then, out of professional courtesy, I spoke to the accountant before the client, to give the accountant concerned the opportunity to look into it themselves and break the news to the client directly themselves (an opportunity the accountant declined, as it happened)

Sometimes, clients believe their bookkeeper before their accountant, because the latter fobs the client off, or is too busy to deal with the query in the timescale that the client hoped for.

Louise
www.figurate.co.uk
www.happyaccountant.com

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By Robert Clubb
20th Apr 2011 11:53

A Little Knowledge........................

I agree with most of the postings (even those from Wales!).

Apart from the issue of clients understanding realistic fees, there is an opportunity for us accountants in sorting out all the carnage when a client realises (yes, it happens sometimes) that all they have got from their bookkeeper are problems, especially when they say that they can save on fees by doing the accounts/returns too.

Every cloud has a silver lining!

 

 

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By The Black Knight
20th Apr 2011 11:56

Professional attitude

Figurate, I think you have hit the nail on the head.

You seem to have the right idea, and attitude and hopefully that is rewarded in more work.

We are supportive of our book keepers and actually enjoy working together, the mistakes (that we all make from time to time) are corrected with a minimum of fuss, so that we all learn.

However we do also see some appalling mistakes where book keepers (and accountants that should know better) have overstepped the mark (into tax or accounts) and have had instances where the bookkeeping work has been poached from an existing client  only to provide us with an absolute mess at the year end. Including a flat rate vat calculation where the wrong turnover figure and the wrong percentage had been used despite us advising in the first place, and said lady was more expensive too !

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By Ermintrude
20th Apr 2011 12:47

Computerised Bookkeeping & Accounting Packages

used by a poor bookkeeper have got to be the worst.  I've dealt with many horrors in my career, and the worst software is Sage.  Yet Sage and bookkeepers continue to be requested together.  And while the bookkeeper can make the postings easily enough, rarely can they produce the correct reports that correspond with each other (e.g TB won't agree to NL, which won't agree to debtors, creditors or bank rec. - and why is the bank rec report so very brief and hard to understand?  How I hate Sage.)  So a bookkeeper can be in post for quite some time until the accountants get the reports and find they're not up to the job - or the job using Sage software, at any rate.

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By jon_griffey
20th Apr 2011 14:39

Bookkeepers
Good bookkeepers who can actually keep a proper set of books are like gold dust. Most have major limitations.

My biggest gripe with bookkeepers is that they always have loyalties with other accountants and will always try to persuade the client to leave you. In fact in two separate cases we introduced bookkeepers to our biggest clients, who wanted to employ someone in house and as soon as they got their feet under the table we lost the clients to their mates. The galling thing was that we got them the bl**dy jobs and they have both done extremely nicely out of it - in fact one became a millionaire when the client eventually got sold. Gratitude!

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By cymraeg_draig
20th Apr 2011 15:05

I couldnt let this go by without comment -

 .........  I am happy to take any advice and learn from an accountant who is a professional member of a body and has their professional Insurance and keeps the CPD training up. I am not happy to take advice from an accountant who is not a member of a professional body. At the end of the day, I would be more qualified then someone who is an accountant by experience .

-- Kind Regards Sarah@ Douglas Accountancy & Bookkeeping Services, Glasgow

 

Posted by sarah douglas on Tue, 19/04/2011 - 10:27

 

I think you need to reassess your attitude to accountants. You say that you would "not by happy to take advice from an accountant who is not a member of a professional body."  We have staff who are not members of any professional body, indeed who for various reasons have never taken exams.  One of them (whose advise you would ignore) is recognised as one of the leading authorities on taxation, not merely in the UK, but internationallly. I would lay bets that many on this site will have read his books. But of course he's "not a member of a professional body" so you wouldnt be happy taking his advice ?

 

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By sally1964
20th Apr 2011 15:06

Some are good but

Some bookkeepers are really good, when cleints want bookkeepers we usually try and work with them and recommend someone etc. This works well as the bookkeepers also recommend us!

I resigned from one client because the bookkeeper (his daughter) was so bad!. Also pointed out that the salary he was paying her and the actual hours she worked meant he was paying his useless daughter more than most qualifed accountants earn!

We just billed them for each time we had to correct errors etc.

Was glad to see the back of them, another accountant has agreed to do the work at a cheaper rate than use, I wonder how that is workign out when he realises that the books, although on SAGE do nto make sense.

With other clients we have sent our billed and added extra for sorting out errors of bookkeepers.

But some are really really good!

 

 

 

 

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
20th Apr 2011 22:02

Good Bookkeepers

Hi Cd

Firstly CD I alway enjoy your posts.

To Clarify my position .   I said in my post  I have total respect for accountants .  I just wish the same respect was shown to good bookkeepers.  I was shortlisted as one of  the top 5 ICB Bookkeeping Practices in the Uk as recommended by my clients and accountants who work with me.   There should be respect by both parties, and if there is it works really well.  The comment  that bookkeepers should know their place is not respect, and therefore it does not come as a surprise that they may not like to contact an accountant who has that view .  I take my practice very seriously.  The same rule has to apply to accountants, that they should know their place and what they are capable of.   

 To explain I was merely trying to point out that not every accountant is an expert on everything.  I have seen many a comment from accountants about sage, not been able to do things which it does, so I can only presume it is a lack of training and knowledge.     I have also seen terrible  bookkeeping computer systems set up by  accountants , who have charged an arm and a leg  for a non workable system that a client can not clearly see their Profit and loss and cashflow in a readable manner.  

On the other side I have seen bookkeepers giving terrible tax advice which if they are under a professional body or not allowed to do so.   I know enough about tax from  my studies in IATI  to know that I don,t know enough.  I do know enough to  suggest a client to ask a few more questions from their accountant if needed.   It is also very clear in the ICB rules that you are not to give tax advise as part of your practice.    

I think any client should check their accountant out and their bookkeeper before they use them.     It is not in my interest to bad mouth an accountant or anyone who shows themselves to be extremely good .  

CD I have  in the past   fought my corner twice, when  I recommended two clients to take on accountants as well as my services .  To call them dangerous and reckless in their advice as accountants who seem to think they were also good  Business advisors is an understatement.  So much so, the head staff in both businesses and I started looking into their background and then to find they were not qualified.   On both occasions two new accountants who I did not know where brought in and were excellent

A good accountant and a good bookkeeper should know if an area is not their expertise and advice their client of someone who is.  

There are good and bad bookkeepers and there are good and bad  accountants.  This post seems to think that it is only bookkeepers who mess up.    I was making the point that there are a lot of people claiming to be accountants when they are no more qualified then some extremely good bookkeepers if not less , and I mean a good bookkeeper who knows what they are doing and knows to advise their client when other expertise is needed.  I  provide a full set of management accounts, Interpretations ,  forecasts and cash flows for all my clients .  I get paid the rate for providing this service.  Most of them contacted me because I was a member of the ICB.    I know the ICB investigate any members that they receive  complaints about. 

The person you have described in your office is clearly involved in tax, as you have mention has written books , so of course you would take this into consideration.  I am extremely good at bookkeeping so it is two different skills.   It actually strengthens my point ,  if you know as an accountant and they have someone with that knowledge or know someone .  Then you should advise a client to use them for that area.  

Finally there maybe a reason why clients go their bookkeeper first .  Rightly or wrongly some accountants give the impression  that they are too good to do this work.   When in fact bookkeeping is the detail and you only really know and understand how that client works and their bad habits and what the problems are when you are the bookkeeper.    The accountants who work with me know I have  resolved  many  issues prior to them been given the year end.  This Leaves them to spend their time dealing with the bigger picture and what tax is owed.    

 

-- Kind Regards Sarah@ Douglas Accountancy & Bookkeeping Services, Glasgow

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By cymraeg_draig
20th Apr 2011 22:49

.

"There should be respect by both parties and if there is it works really well."

I totally agree, as I said in my first post.

Where I think you are wrong is in checking out an accountants qualifications as a way to assess competence. A piece of paper, probably obtained 20 years ago, proves absolutely nothing. In my experience there are far too many qualified accountants who think that once they can hang that certificate on the wall they have finished learning, know it all, and can sit back and charge mega bucks.  QBEs on the other hand have to keep working and constantly update their knowledge just to stay in business. So as far as I'm concerned that piece of paper proves nothing. 

Thats why half the staff are QBEs, and, why they earn exactly the same (same salary, same perks, same bonus) as qualifieds. 

I would hazard a guess that in the cases where there is a breakdown in communication between the accountant and the bookeeper  3/4 of the time the fault lies with the accountant, probably behaving in a pompous manner so that the bookeeper feels belittled having to ask for assistance.

An accountant should build a good trusting relationship with his client's accounts staff - if he doesnt then it's he who is the failure, not the staff.

I use the word "pompous" quite deliberately because there are accountants, even in this forum, who can be pompous at times, and all they achieve is to show themselves up.

I have an philosophy which others could, I believe, profit from adopting. I don't care whether someone is a brain surgeon or a dustman, they all have their own skills and are all equally valuable and deserving of respect. Yes I can sort out accounts or tax, but I'd make a useless bookeeper as I lack the patience to piddle about over a few pounds, and I know I make a useless joiner as my expertise in joining 2 pieces of wood together involves a 6" nail and a big hammer :)  I can ride the wheels off a motorbike, but I couldnt build one.

I hate false snobbery in all its forms, and in my experience this false snobbery is one of the major causes of distrust between "professionals" and the rest of the "peasants".

 

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By julieraikes
21st Apr 2011 08:11

Build a relationship

 Im with Steve & Phil on this, the clients book keeper can be your best friend.  If you work with them, train them up if they need it then they will be grateful and more effective.  Most believe they are doing a good job but because they havent undertaken much training they have gaps in their knowledge.  Help fill those gaps and they will be your eyes and ears, plus a source of some good referrals.

Phil makes a good point - there are good and bad accountants as well as book keepers, I have come across some real horror stories taking over from previous accountants.

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By Ermintrude
21st Apr 2011 08:15

Sage

to Sarah Douglas - you have a point about bookkeepers and Sage and not getting enough training.  However, the training required to be able to manage Sage, which is a user unfriendly bordering on user-hostile piece of software, would be imeense and hugely costly (Sage already cash in on this, as training is always needed, and so is ongoing support - ker-ching!). My issues with business - bookkeeper - Sage relationships, are with Sage.  The ignorant (meant in its proper context of unknowing/inexperienced) know the name Sage, know of training courses run by Sage and for Sage (ker-ching for everyone involved) so think that must be the best.  So they employ a bookkeeper with Sage experience (yes they can do the data entry, but reporting and reconciling is something only an expert - bookkeer or accountant - can manage).  Then the accountant gets the data, sometimes months after the year end if its a new client, and find they have to re-do much of the bookkeeping, almost always the bank rec with the Sage report, bank statements and highlighting pen - and what a waste of time and effort (not to mention cost) for the bookkeeper, and additional costs for the accountant, to sort the mess out.  I regularly post my dislike of Sage as this is my repeated experience.  I myself used Sage in a management accountancy capacity many years ago, and it was perfectly adequate and faultless - but then I have had more than a quarter of a century's experience with computerised software, and I am an expert.

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By ShirleyM
21st Apr 2011 09:53

CD & Ermintrude

CD - I agree totally with what you say. I personally dislike people who wave their qualifications around as 'proof' of their competence. I have engaged highly qualified (FCA & CTA) people in the past thinking I could rely upon their work and, to be quite frank, the experience was a real eye opener. I wouldn't have trusted them with a simple set of accounts or a simple personal tax return. They were highly qualified but did not have the relevant experience, and I had foolishly accepted their claim to competence.

Ermintrude - I agree totally that Sage is only suitable for very capable bookkeepers. The majority of small businesses (which my client base is comprised of) cannot spare the time, or the cost, of sufficient training that is needed to use Sage well, and produce useful data. I have approx 30 years experience of Sage, I know it inside out, but I do not, and could not, expect this level of expertise from anyone but a very competent bookkeeper. Unfortunately, bookkeepers who are really competent with Sage are as rare as Hens teeth. For this reason we guide all our clients away from Sage.

As said many times above, there are good and bad of both accountants and bookkeepers. I disagree with the implication that competence is wholly based on qualifications.

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
21st Apr 2011 18:38

Qualifications

Hi CD and Shirley 

I except qualifications are not the be and end all.   I do believe that having experience and qualifications is the key.  Just because you have the qualifications does not necessarily  mean you are good and I maybe did not explain this properly in my original post.  It is essential to stay in business as you have said CD, that you  keep up to date. Otherwise you should not be in business.   It is frightening how some actually got their qualifications.

Shirley I appreciate your point about accountants waiving their qualifications ,  but on the  other side of the coin there people like ex bank managers especially in Glasgow and Edinburgh claiming to be accountants and bookkeepers with little or no skills.   I am sure it happens everywhere.  So yes I am reluctant to take advice from them about bookkeeping , when all their doing is getting in the door because of who they know.

  This is why all clients should check out their accountant and Bookkeeper before they use them.  If you are good then you should not mind any of your clients  checking a reference.

   Of course if you are recommending an accountant to your client ,its great if you know of an accountant thats good  , but  if you do not .    You have to  make sure you have done your research if it is a certain area of expertise that is needed.  If you made the recommendation to your client , then it would be egg on my face if I had not made the client aware they were not qualified but also stress their good points.   After that it is up to the client to make their choice but at least they are aware of the facts. 

All in fair in love and war though.   As I have said I am not interested in bad mouthing a accountant, but if he or she is questioning my work .   I have the right to defend my work if they are calling themselves an accountant , when in fact they could be less qualified than me.  I am also well capable of putting a set of Companies House accounts together through my IATI studies and have keep  myself up to date.  I train people to use Sage Sap so you need to know what you are doing.   If I have made a mistake then I would put my hand up and if I have charged a client for that time then I would issue them with a credit note.   I not going to take it lying down if someone is badmouthing my work .  If I made a mistake I am not going to make a fool of myself either by protesting if I have made a mistake.

I have had accountants who are not qualified send my clients Journals for me to do which are completely incorrect and would change the Creditors Control , Debtors Control , Vat and Paye which all have been reconciled to the penny.   My interest is for my client so if they want the journals done , the accountant needs to show why or otherwise it should be obvious.   My favorite one for example is the use of Sundry Creditors and Sundry Debtors.  Sometimes it is impossible to get an answer form some accountants what is is made up of.

 I also have years of experience and have taken considerable part in the sage user group within this site to which the accounting web have published as an article .  Its not just bookkeepers that struggle with sage it is accountants as well.  

When sage is run well it is great for a business that has stock ,qoutes, project costing, purchase orders.   That is why businesses like it. Business use sage for many things and not just bookkeeping.  It  is no harder then using a spreadsheet.    To be honest if you are struggling using sage, or any computer package in this day an age .  I think an update of skills is required.  Everyone has to do it at some point.   I spent the last couple of years getting used to apple because so many of my clients use it now..      Businesses can also go straight into all the contacts websites straight from sage  and if set up well is a fanastic tool for memos and database of all the contacts you have with every company.  

 

-- Kind Regards Sarah@ Douglas Accountancy & Bookkeeping Services, Glasgow

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By cymraeg_draig
21st Apr 2011 18:55

Sarah

All in fair in love and war though. As I have said I am not interested in bad mouthing a accountant, but if he or she is questioning my work . I have the right to defend my work if they are calling themselves an accountant , when in fact they could be less qualified than me.

Posted by sarah douglas on Thu, 21/04/2011 - 18:38

 

I dont see what their qualifications have to do with it.  Surely the point is - are they right ?  Theyt might be the firms cleaner and have never seen a set of accounts in their life, it doesnt matter, if they are right then they are right.  Just because someone is less qualified than you does not mean they are stupid.   

 

________________________________________________________

To be honest if you are struggling using sage, or any computer package in this day an age . I think an update of skills is required.

 

Posted by sarah douglas on Thu, 21/04/2011 - 18:38

 

Do you think so ?  I've used Sage on and off for many years and I really would not waste my time going on training courses (to line Sages pockets).  We simply tell clients to get a decent package and dump Sage. There are numerous packages available that are cheaper, faster, simpler (more intuitive) and far better than Sage.

In our experience numerous "errors" are actully caused by the cumbersome nature of Sage.

Until Sage stop acting as if they are the only game in town and start listening to their users instead of trying to sell the most cumbersome accounts package ever written, they dont deserve and will not receive the support of the majority of accountants.

 

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
21st Apr 2011 19:53

If they are right it does not matter if they are qualified

Hi CD 

"If I have made a mistake then I would put my hand up and if I have charged a client for that time then I would issue them with a credit note.   I not going to take it lying down if someone is badmouthing my work .  If I made a mistake I am not going to make a fool of myself either by protesting if I have made a mistake."

CD I have never thought anyone is stupid no matter what they do.  I actually think the complete opposite.  I struggled to get my exams as I was not well for a number of years .  I am just like you I have no time for the way some people  treat waitress for example .  That is how I started out and very proud of it.

    I do see the benefit of exams and we probably may not agree on that one.  Of Course CD if they are right then yes I should fix it.   But what happens if I believe they are wrong regardless of their qualifications .   Then I expect them to prove to me why they are right and why I have made a mistake.   In most cases if both Bookkeeper and Accountant spoke to each other then their could be a valid reason for an item to be accounted for the way it was. 

If I started for example saying to one of your clients as their bookkeeper , that you were not very good.   I would expect you to challenge me and also be annoyed that I could potentially lose you a customer .  I don,t thing you would except that and nor should you.

The original post said most bookkeepers are generally rubbish.    

  I don,t like anyone regardless of qualifications bad mouthing someones work , when they have not given that person an opportunity to answer why they did a transaction a certain way .    I have the duty to my client to fix it and not charge them for it as I said.  But I do have the right to question someone who is accountant if I believe their journals to be incorrect and for them to explain the reason for them. 

With regards to Sage .  They are working hard at the moment and I go to their user groups because it is important for my practice and have stressed many points of annoyance to them.    They have actually worked hard on removing a lot of unnecessary items in the side menu and the reports .   And the new version coming out.  I hope to see a massive change in COA layout.  

CD I know why accountants do not like sage as they do not require half of the info it provides . Businesses like sage because  from my experience as an accounts department manager , when it is run to its full capacity it is excellent for an accounts department.   I  am aware if your doing a small sole trader or business that you do not need half of it .    Some of the businesses I do accounts for had sage prior to  me starting .  If sage is set up correctly in a methodical fashion with codes that are easy to remember it works very well. 

 

-- Kind Regards Sarah@ Douglas Accountancy & Bookkeeping Services, Glasgow

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By ShirleyM
22nd Apr 2011 10:40

Honesty

Sarah: I can understand your viewpoint and it all comes down to basic honesty, as you yourself have pointed out. If accountants and bookkeepers were more honest about their abilities then most of the problems wouldn't arise.

With particular regard to bookkeepers, we have had 'bookkeepers' touting for work and questioning their capabilities results in discovering they haven't a clue how to reconcile accounts, be it sales, purchase, bank, paye, VAT, etc. All they have is data entry experience and think they are bookkeepers.

Really good bookkeepers with good VAT knowledge, with or without Sage knowledge, are really quite rare.

It is probably the same with accountants. We have seen both good and bad from both highly qualified, and unqualified, accountants.  

I refuse work that I don't feel really comfortable with. I do have specialists available where a long standing client needs additional expertise on a one-off basis. I have never lost, or disappointed a client because I have told them I don't have enough experience to do what they require and I would require the assistance from someone with more expertise, or engage them to complete the task.

In summary, many good accountants/bookkeepers don't have formal qualification for very genuine reasons. Many of the older generation do not have formal qualification because the opportunities today did not exist then. But the older generation have a lifetime of experience!

So long as everyone is aware of their limitations there isn't a problem, but as said earlier, this requires awareness of your limitations and the honesty to admit it.

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By cymraeg_draig
22nd Apr 2011 10:59

Limitations.

So long as everyone is aware of their limitations there isn't a problem, but as said earlier, this requires awareness of your limitations and the honesty to admit it.

 

Posted by ShirleyM on Fri, 22/04/2011 - 10:40

 

In my experience those who have been around a long time tend to know their limitations and take action accordingly. The real problem (which we have encountered more than once) is young freshly qualified people clutching their nice new certificates in their hands who think that because they passed a couple of exams they know everything. In fact of course, they have no experience, and for all their theoretocal knowledge they know virtually nothing about the real world.

We also find accountants who have only ever workled in the rarified atmosphere of the large practice can be dangerously ignorant of the day to day issues faced by "normal" small businesses.

I don't think this is a problem confined to the world of accountancy either. It seems to affect every business where new graduates are thrust into positions that a piece of paper says they can fill, but, that their experience does not qualify them for. I suspect that this is happening at HMRC too.  Certainly it is becoming more and more prevalent in the courts where fresh faced counsel who lack the experience and cynacism of the old hacks are suddenly taught a lesson by being totally outsmarted by an experienced counsel using the oldest tricks in the book to flatten their "cast iron" case.

Which is why, whatever the profession, I place very little importance on bits of paper, and far more importance on experience.

 

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By mwngiol
26th Apr 2011 13:10

Replies

Thanks to you all for taking the time to reply.

I would like to reply to some of Sarah's points.

Firstly, I did imply in my original post that I felt most bookkeepers are rubbish. However this is purely an observation and based on personal experience of the bookkeepers our clients have hired/employed, and this is why I was asking for feedback as to whether this is common. I did also say in a later post that it is not just bookkeepers but many accountants too. We have taken over clients from other accountants many times and found errors raging from minor to major, from understandable to frankly astounding. Also worth pointing out that the errors are made just as often by qualified accountants as they are by unqualified.

But we do deal more often with bookkeepers than accountants, just as I am sure that you deal more often with accountants than with other bookkeepers, and therefore we pick up on their mistakes more often than we do on other accountants'.

The relationship between ourselves and bookkeepers can be hugely positive, and can save the client a lot of money in fees. In many cases we have almost no contact with the client during the accounts preparation process and deal almost exclusively with the bookkeeper.

I do find Sage to be a common factor in the errors made. It is entirely unsuitable for most small businesses. I have the same issue with it as I do with the Simplex D books - when used correctly it's fine, but when used incorrectly it just presents more problems than not having any kind of bookkeeping done at all.

The reason I was so annoyed as to be driven to make the original post was down to this one particular bookkeeper. Admittedly she is especially poor and not at all representative of all bookkeepers, but at no stage did we badmouth her to the client and we never would do so.

When the client's paperwork was brought to us (with only the last bank statement for the year showing that the bank was tens of thousands from balancing) we firstly asked to speak directly to the bookkeeper only to be told that she didn't want to speak with us. We then asked for bank statements for the year, to which the client said that the bookkeeper told them that we wouldn't need them. So we pointed out that no standing orders/direct debits or BACS bankings had been entered and we would therefore need the statements. The bookkeeper told the client that it was our job and not hers to enter them.

She had also told the client that they would get a significant tax refund for the year as they had constructed a new shed costing over 100k. Very little of this was claimable against profits and even had there been a loss there was no tax to be refunded, with the client having paid no tax for the last 6 years and there being no tax deducted at source.

Incidentally, none of the best bookkeepers hired by any of our clients are professionally qualified.

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
26th Apr 2011 17:37

Bookkeepers

Hi 

Thanks for your feedback.   I do still think it is important that any client checks their bookkeeper and accountant prior to using their services for qualifications and experience so they can make an informed decision .   I am not saying exams are everything but they do help along with having a lot of experience.  I feel to say exams are of no help is not correct, it depends on the student if they really wanted to learn or just to rattle it off for an exam.  

This is the same for every exam anyone  ever does. 

I am sorry if your experience had not been good with bookkeepers.    I wish people could not just call themselves bookkeepers either when they have no experience .  Both bookkeepers and accountants can really mess up when either does not know what they are doing.  This is why you should always check your bookkeepers and accountants references from current clients.    I am afraid to say their are a lot of businesses that do not check.

For example I failed my first exams because I did not understand Disposal of Assets when I was 18.   I did not get any of exams until I really understood why I was doing something.   I do think exams help but they go hand in hand with work experience, which I have also heavily mentioned on the ICB Forum .

I appreciate your view point, but I also know plenty of businesses that are happy with their bookkeeper.  I also know very good bookkeepers that are qualified .    Some of my responses were not just to your view point but to all the comments.

Finally I did not mean you bad mouthed your bookkeeper , my understanding is that she said to your client that she or him could offer a better service at a lower price and get a refund.   If this was the case I would also be annoyed at the situation.   If it was me I would write to the client explaining why your fees or what they are.  I would ask if the bookkeeper could clarify in writing  how she plans to  get a tax refund and respond to your client in writing , explaining your tax knowledge of the subject also with back up .  This should identify to your client her lack of knowledge on Tax .

I think there is no place for bookkeepers or accountants to bad mouth another as the clients bookkeeper if she had concerns regarding any of your work , she or him should have contacted you directly or through your client with specific queries are questions .   This would have given you the opportunity to respond.  

I also have got upset when the same as been done the other way around and I have not been given the opportunity to answer any queries. 

Also I not saying there is a reason, but your client seemed very quick to believe this bookkeeper with regards to your fees.  Rightly or wrongly the client has mentioned it , so they must feel it is an issue. 

 

 

-- Kind Regards Sarah@ Douglas Accountancy & Bookkeeping Services, Glasgow

Edit re Spelling errors  23.36pm 26th April 2011

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By petersaxton
07th May 2011 16:17

Sarah

Apologies for coming to this thread so late.

The one thing that I take issue with you is when you say that you wouldn’t take advice from an unqualified accountant. I agree totally with CD when he says that is wrong. By all means don’t follow the advice of an accountant who appears to be saying something incorrect but I think you are wrong to judge the advice based on the accountant and not the advice itself. Being a bookkeeper (and from what I can tell, a very good one at that) I would expect you to be able to judge whether the advice you were given was good or not. With it being you I don’t expect accountants would have to tell you how to do your job it would be more likely to be how to deal with an issue at the year end and start of the new year where more than one treatment is possible.

I don’t have a large number of bookkeepers at my clients. Many clients use Excel or they use QuickBooks or Sage – and a few other packages – but do the work themselves. The bigger clients have some very good bookkeepers and I have a good relationship with them. I have had some horror stories but that has usually been because clients have ignored my advice and taken on bookkeepers without consulting me and then not sent me the accounts data early to review.

One such client procrastinated until near the Companies House deadline and when he showed me the accounts data they were absolute rubbish. He then admitted that he’d had three “bookkeepers” via ICB (who I had recommended he contact) but they rarely visited to do any work and would disappear after awhile. He complained that they’d said they’d submitted his VAT returns but he kept getting penalties for late submissions. When I asked why he didn’t ask to see the VAT return and/or submit it himself he said he trusted the bookkeeper although at the same time he’d say they didn’t seem very reliable. I said it wasn’t a question of trust it was more a question of him taking some interest in what was being done. I’d explained that accounts were supposed to provide useful information on a day to day basis but he’d never seen debtor and creditor lists and bank reconciliations as I had recommended.

That may be an extreme case. I’ve also seen accountants who will do year end adjustments without discussing them with bookkeepers first or even not bothering to give them the adjustments to the bookkeeper to enter them on the system. Even when they do provide the journals they are based on their own accounts production software and no effort is made to ensure they have enough information for the bookkeeper.

To repeat what I have said at the top: Judge the advice rather than the person giving the advice.

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By Robert Clubb
09th May 2011 08:38

Great, in theory

I agree that prospective clients should 'test' the calibre of an accountant/book-keeper before they make an appointment.

However, only once, in over 40 year in practice, has a prospective client taken up references for ourselves. The irony is that the client ignored our advice and, as a result, his business failed.

Perhaps a lesson for us all?

 

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