Ending support for clients with on-premise bookkeeping software?

Ending support for clients with on-premise...

Didn't find your answer?

Responding to this Any Answers question, AWeb member Paul Scholes said:

"Given the benefits of online bookeeping I can't see us using or supporting desktop software in a year's time".

I think there's an interesting debate to be had here, one that I thought would be better served by its own discussion thread.

What do other members think?  If you decided to go "online only" what would you do about good, profitable (for you) existing clients who want to stick with on-premise Sage or QuicKBooks? What would you do with a new prospect, that's just the kind of client you want, but uses one of the main on-premise bookkeeping products?

And, anyway, is this something that we accountants should impose, or should we be led by what the client wants?

Given that there are probably around 50 online bookkeeping packages to choose from at the moment, does "online only" mean more of a support headache than being proficient in two or three on-premise offerings?

Adrian @topaccountants

Replies (32)

Please login or register to join the discussion.

avatar
By cymraeg_draig
20th Feb 2011 11:12

Online ?

On-line bookkeeping systems are still in their infancy, and I am yet to be convinced that they are totally secure.  Hackers & viruses can, and no doubt will, attack these sites - what then?  So I don't think that, as yet, they are something we can recommend to clients without issuing a "health warning".

The next question is - which one?  As you say there is a large choice of offerings at present, but, I feel as time goes on many of these will die off, and as with anything else, a handful will emerge as favourites.  Until then I don't think we are in a position to actually recommend which is best, or indeed which will still be there in 5 years time. 

And, no, its certainly not for an acountant to dictate what bookkeeping system a client uses. If they wish to stick with Sage or indeed with hand written books, then it is up to us to provide support for that, or, pass them to an accountant who will.

There is a very annoying, and indeed discriminatory, attitude at present where some firms insist that everything is done online. There are even proposals by HMRC that all returns MUST be filed online. This is very wrong, there are people out there (I saw a figure of 30%) who dont have access to the internet, dont want access to the internet, and shouldnt be forced to access it just because HMRC say so. I know an accountant who is retired but still does a few accounts, who is not on the net, and indeed wouldnt know how to switch a computer on - but he's still a damn good accountant. We certainly have many clients who wouldnt dream of going online.  Are we supposed to abandon them because of that ?

Personally, I think an accountant that "insists" on any specific bookkeping method is actually displaying unacceptable arrogance - but thats just my view.

 

Thanks (0)
FT
By FirstTab
20th Feb 2011 11:43

Great thread - I have been thinking about this

Thanks for raising this Adrian - I have been thinking about this a lot.

In my review of many  accountancy websites I did notice a number of practices using Xero as part of thier business model. They made it very clear clients will have to use Xero.

I have converted a fair number of clients to VT and this works really well both sides. The key point you raise if I decided tp go online system what about clients and potential clients - transfer them  online? 

I would retain exisiting clients on VT. All new clients would go online. Any clients who prefer to use their own systems would be charged a higher fee.

From experience, I will no longer take on  clients who just use manual system and do not make use of the internet. Even if they are willing to pay higher fees. Communication  just becomes difficult. Plus this is not the way I want to go. They are many other providers who work on just send us your paperwork model.

 

Thanks (0)
avatar
By loz
20th Feb 2011 12:22

Moving online

Client doesn't always know what he wants and, if he does, it may not be the best solution.

I think we should explain the benefits of online solutions to those clients that are suited to them and support them in the process of moving over.

As online solutions continue to develop they will become suitable for more and more clients and eventually the vast majority will be online

Thanks (0)
avatar
By 3569787
03rd May 2016 18:18

One door closes another opens

Thanks (0)
By ShirleyM
20th Feb 2011 12:47

Not an option

We only deal with small business.

I would be delighted if we could get all our cients onto email and electronic records :)

Online bookkeeping would not interest the majority of our clients, so for us, it isn't an option.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By cymraeg_draig
20th Feb 2011 13:37

.

 I will no longer take on  clients who just use manual system and do not make use of the internet.  Posted by FirstTab on Sun, 20/02/2011 - 11:43

 

Sounds to me like the tail trying to wag the dog.

 

Thanks (0)
avatar
By User deleted
20th Feb 2011 15:27

Dogs and tails

I will no longer take on  clients who just use manual system and do not make use of the internet.  Posted by FirstTab on Sun, 20/02/2011 - 11:43

Sounds to me like the tail trying to wag the dog. CD

It sounds to me more like someone making a conscious decision regarding the direction in which they want to take their practice. Where's the difference between that and only taking on limited companies or farmers or any other specific type? If FirstTab was trying to make existing clients change then maybe but he's not, he's talking about being selective over new clients. Clients who want manual systems or no internet use have plenty of accountants left to use so everyone's a winner.

I don't think we'll see an end to non-online software for a while yet. There are too many people still struggling with manual bookkeeping and the likes of Sage. Average Joe has heard of Sage, knows his mates use Sage and therefore thinks he should too. Until he hears his mates down the pub are successfully using Xero or whatever he'll not rush to change. That's not to say that accountants won't use online software and promote it when asked but a lot of clients are already using a particular method before they get to us and won't be fussed about changing.

Thanks (0)
By petersaxton
20th Feb 2011 15:31

Not my attitude

I have a client who is 89 and her husband died last year at the year of 91.

I do not plan to make her use email or tell her to find another accountant or do it herself.

Even if a new client came along I wouldn't insist on them using email. I can deal with any form of information and as long as they take reasonable notice of my advice and I get reasonably remunerated I will take the work on.

I suppose I'm just old-fashioned - why, I even record my time!

Thanks (0)
avatar
By cymraeg_draig
20th Feb 2011 15:58

Unprofessional discrimination.

I feel there is something unprofessional and unethical about any profession attempting to dictate to clients what they must use.

Accountants refusing to act for clients who dont use online systems is no different to doctors refusing to treat smokers or the obese, or barristers refusing legal representation to those accused of certain types of offence (even paedophiles are entitled to representation).

A doctor takes an oath to treat ANYONE who is ill - not just those who live an "approved" lifestyle.

Barristers undertake to represent anyone requiring their services, not just the innocent.

And, in my view, accountants should represent anyone who needs representation agains "the state" in the form of HMRC - not just those who use an "approved" bookkeeping system. 

This seems to me to amount to a form of discrimination, what next, turning away anyone over 60 because they wont live long enough to make it worth starting a file?

 

 

Thanks (0)
Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
20th Feb 2011 16:43

Half a mo, there's more to this than meets some eyes

Firstly, thanks Adrian for highlighting this.

The remark I made (that Adrian quotes) was a PS to a question about what online accounting people use.  It would appear that, in their inimitable style, some "headline only scanners" may have started their own bandwagon and so risk hijacking the thread into yet another competition for the moral high ground.  The next bit is for you.

5 years ago we maintained our own versions of Sage, QBs, MYOB and even ones that don't now exist, and spent time & money to keep them up to date so that we could import clients' data.  For us that is no longer necessary or even economic, for the following reasons:

The packages I quote above may have a few extra bells & whistles, but the core functions that our clients use have remained pretty much unchanged over the years and so we can actually give them advice over the phone, in front of their computers or even over the internet.Clients have become proficient in the packages and rely far more on the products' support helplines.As all packages can export to Excel, we get clients to send us TBs, General Ledger and other reports from their systems, for direct import into Iris for year end accounts.New versions & upgrades are numerous (especially when linked to payroll modules) and we are no longer able to afford to keep versions live.Knowing how Sage processes a sales invoice from a sales order may make great conversation at your dinner parties but I really don't want to know.

For the above reason, we now only have one product loaded.  That doesn't mean that we have thrown out any client for the system they use, computerised or manual, it just means we no longer include product support in our engagement letters.  Also most new clients come to us with systems they have used for years so unless they are unhappy with it and are looking for an alternative, I'm not going to force them to change. 

Having used online bookkeeping with a handful of clients for 9 months now I am 100% sold on the concept, it makes client interaction so much easier and is a perfect route into computerised accounting for many of our clients who have only ever used spreadsheets or manual books.

Seeing the move of other products into SaaS and the wealth of accounting systems now online (enabling clients to pick what best suits them rather than being dicctated to by the monopolies) I have no doubt that within two years most new accounting software sold will be used online.

As far as the various comments about how I chose my clients, data security & best advice are concerned, keep out my kitchen and we can all take our chances.

 

Thanks (0)
Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
20th Feb 2011 17:16

Adrian

Having researched 3-4 online packages we chose the one that seemed easy to use (FreeAgent) and would best suite the majority of our clients who, as I say above, might look to move away from spreadsheets and paper. Sheer good luck that we chose the one that Iris decided to partner with.

As it happens this also coincided with two desktop package users who had got fed up with the ever increasing complexity and wanted something more straight forward.

The discusion about how many online packages there are about and how on earth are we to know which is best, is a classic accountants stance, ie seeing threat rather than opportunity.  As I say, I researched 3-4, came down on one but there's another one that I also liked that may suit larger clients (Xero).  In this way I have covered the majority of my clients, however just as when a client wanted to move up from Sage a few years back, if someone wants something special, I'll help them find it.

In this development period, I couldn't understand anyone insisting that clients all change but, just as we did with presenting accounts and returns on paper, once a critical mass of clients have moved over we will make the jump into "this is the way we do it and there will be a premium if you still want it the old way".  That's how things as a whole develop, many firms now no longer have fax machines and none of my clients would refuse to sign using a ballpoint pen (although I remember the time when many did).  I'm not saying that I always like the pace of change (opportunity) but, like death & taxes, change happens.

Thanks (0)
By petersaxton
20th Feb 2011 17:43

What change?

I think there's a difference between saying that change happens and refusing to do something that's still relatively easy to do.

I still accept data from Sage, QuickBooks and MYOB but if somebody was using Access Accounting or TAS Books I would ask for a trial balance and maybe analysis of certain accounts.

Clients can still send me spreadsheets.

I still accept paper records or documentation but I charge extra because of the extra work involved.

I can't see my attitude changing in the future - not mine anyway!

Thanks (0)
avatar
By cymraeg_draig
20th Feb 2011 18:14

..........., keep out my kitchen and we can all take our chances.

 

Posted by Paul Scholes on Sun, 20/02/2011 - 16:43

 

Isn't this a forum - where views and opinions are exchanged ?  Or did I miss the memo saying no one else is entitled to have an opinion?

 

Thanks (0)
By petersaxton
20th Feb 2011 18:23

"My opinion is what I want to know"

"Isn't this a forum - where views and opinions are exchanged ?"

It is but Paul doesn't have to like it.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By thomas34
21st Feb 2011 09:19

Book-keeping

There really are some eye-opening observations on this thread. I envy those practitioners that can be choosy about the type of work that they take on. What is evident is that all posters are using some sort of double entry system to prepare accounts for unincorporated businesses whether it be Sage, Quickbooks, VT or one of the online packages.

I must be one of the dying breed that accepts books of prime entry in any form and prepares most sole trader accounts on a single entry basis using my own checks and balances.

I'm particularly intrigued by First Tab whose future clients must operate via the internet. The block of fees between £150K and £250K that he was seeking to purchase about 6 weeks ago could end in an expensive venture.

 

Thanks (0)
Adrian Pearson
By Adrian Pearson
21st Feb 2011 09:20

Thanks for the contributions so far

Thanks to all who have contributed so far, especially Paul who has explained his views at length.

As I said, the reason I started this thread is that I am genuinely interested in this issue and how different firms intend to address it - or not, as the case may be.

Hopefully we get more members adding their views, so we can see a wide range of opinion.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By cymraeg_draig
21st Feb 2011 09:34

I'm shocked by some attitudes -

I must be one of the dying breed that accepts books of prime entry in any form and prepares most sole trader accounts on a single entry basis using my own checks and balances.

 

Posted by thomas34 on Mon, 21/02/2011 - 09:19

 

You're not alone, we get our fair share of carrier bags and cardboard boxes stuffed full of receipts.

The thought of a sheep farmer in a valley where the 'phone is still viewed as "a new fangled contraption" entering his records on the internet is laughable.  There are small off-shore fishermen who are similar. These men are the salt of the earth, their word is their bond and you could trust any of them with your life. 

Are we really saying that some accountants would get rid of men like this, or refuse to take them as clients, just because they have no use for computers?  

Thanks (0)
avatar
By justsotax
21st Feb 2011 10:09

Paper records are often better than computer records....

For those older clients who complete their records diligently I suspect have them in much better order than those who pop it into a spreadsheet or software.  As with any software - crap in = crap out.....no matter how good the software...and guess who ends up having to unravel it to find that elusive incorrect entry

 

Thanks (0)
the sea otter
By memyself-eye
21st Feb 2011 12:24

I'll take those 'no computer' clients

Some (I was going to say 'many') of mine don't even use a pen!

Twas ever thus.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By BryanS1958
22nd Feb 2011 12:04

Online systems slow and cumbersome

Whilst I like the idea of online systems and do recommend them on occasion, I find them slow and cumbersome. For example it is far quicker to work with my preferred desktop product, QuickBooks,  than any online product I have come across so far.  It has better search and find facilities, much better and more flexible reporting and the ability to have several windows open, so when changing one transaction it is possible to immediately see the effect on other reports such as aged debtors/Balance Sheet and P & L.  None of the online systems I have researched have been anything like as versatile.

Desktop packages have disadvantages, but I still prefer QuickBooks, especially as an accountant needing to be able to quickly review and change things for cost conscious clients.  Trying to review and change things on online systems tends to be a long process.  Most desktop disadvantages can be overcome by using a program such as Logmein to directly access the client's program.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By bencooper
22nd Feb 2011 13:01

Well done C_D

C_D said early on in this thread:

"And, no, its certainly not for an acountant to dictate what bookkeeping system a client uses. If they wish to stick with Sage or indeed with hand written books, then it is up to us to provide support for that"

Absolutely.

I would add to this that it may not even be in the accountants remit to help the client decide what is the right solution for them. If I want accounting advice I go to an accountant. If I want software advice I go to a software company/consultant. An independent one at that!

As AW regularly proves, some accountants dont understand the software side of things and end up referring the only one they know, for their own sake, or the cheapest because they are worried their clients wont pay for quality.

There are a handful of us out there that work on an independent basis, have knowledge of the software market (both on-premise and SaaS) and work to understand the clients very detailed needs and recommend a solution to meet those.

An accountant will too often simply focus on the accounting side of things and ignore peripheral functions such as stock,order processing client management and marketing. This is not a bad thing but it means clients end up using multiple solutions and spending more money and time trying to stitch them all together.

Somebody that takes a wider view will consider all these issues and then look at the solutions that best fit that overall need.

Simply saying online or nothing suggests that the accountant is not considering their clients needs or they have a very unique base for which one size does fit all - Highly unlikely or a very small base one might summise.

If you are not sure about what is right for your clients or you want advise from within the market, find someone to help you and ensure the decision you make and the advice you give is right for all concerned.

www.recenseo.co.uk/business-management-software/selecting-new-erp-software/

Thanks (0)
avatar
By jasonholden
24th Feb 2011 11:26

.

Simple answer IMO is you need to support both, we have been online since 2005 and although we have clients in the cloud we also have a good number on-premise and thats how they like it, so who are we to argue.

Maybe one day everyone will be online, but I personally think that day is some way off yet!

Jason

Holden Associates

Small Business Blog

Thanks (0)
avatar
By jonbryce
24th Feb 2011 12:07

Security of data

What happens when the online accountancy firm goes bust, as most of them will, and the first you hear about it is when they switch the server off?  What happens if they decide to hike the monthly fees to silly levels? 

Will you be able to transfer the data to another provider?  Can you keep your own backups?  Will your computer be able to make sense of those backups?  Unless you can be absolutely sure you can still access the data in 7 years time, I would not go online.

If Sage or Quickbooks go bust, which is unlikely, you can still run their software.  You just won't get any new updates, but you will have time to arrange an alternative solution.

Thanks (0)
Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
24th Feb 2011 12:34

Jon

Most of them are going bust, who told you, which ones?  How about Google, my ISP, my payroll sofware company, online banker, paypal, mobile service provider, online backup provider, Waitrose!!

Suppose you just factor your own personal risk profile into your business decision, plus I download a full Excel dump of all data once a week.

Life on the edge eh?

Thanks (0)
By petersaxton
24th Feb 2011 12:53

Argue against what somebody DOESN'T say gives you a better chanc

Jon says: “What happens when the online accountancy firm goes bust, as most of them will”

Paul seems to want to misread that as: “Most of them are going bust” and went on to say: “who told you, which ones?”

Thanks (0)
avatar
By jonbryce
24th Feb 2011 15:40

Paul

I don't know which ones are going to go bust.  That is the problem.  If I did know, then I would be able to avoid them.

What I do know is that statistically in a start-up market such as this, most of the companies will fail, and a few will survive.

Taking the others in turn

If Waitrose goes bust, you go to another food shop.  You might lose a small amount of money from faulty products you aren't able to return, but mostly it will just be a change of routine

Paypal - You hope the Luxembourg financial regulator is able to get you your money back, then you find another payment provider, possibly Google Checkout.

Bank - most likely another bank will take over your account, or you wait for a payment from the FSCS, which could be a pain if you need the money now.

Payroll software company - I covered that in my earlier posting.  You will still be able to use it until the next legislation update doesn't come in, and you will still be able to access the data to transfer it to another system.

Your ISP or mobile service provider - find a new one.  You will probably have a few days downtime.  In the case of the mobile provider, someone else will almost certainly buy the spectrum licence and the customer base.

Google - if you only use it for search, then you could try Bing or Yahoo instead.

Gmail, and your online backup provider - they have exactly the same issues as online accountancy, except that Gmail is in a more mature market.  I lost a lot of email addresses in the early days of the internet when providers went bust, so I got my own domain name and my own exchange server to avoid that problem in future.

Thanks (0)
Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
24th Feb 2011 16:39

Thanks Jon

Yep, all makes sense (except Waitrose which is irreplaceable), apologies I should have been more direct.

You stated that most of them will go bust and at least we now know why you believe that.  We are however in a slightly unusual situation in that not only was this a new market waiting to happen, ie with a huge potential customer base but the current small number of desktop publishers have become classic monopolies and have already missed the opportunity to get stuck in.

The other aspect of the 2-3 monopolies in small business accounts is that, being many times heavier than they were 10 years ago, each client business takes on a great deal of baggage they will never use whereas with the number of new entrants into the SaaS market you have far more choice to pick the one that best suits your business and way of working.

From a technical standpoint the online systems are lean and written using platforms that are easy to update with (in the case of OpenBooks/Freeagent) upgrade/enhancement periods of 6-8 weeks at a time rather than every year or two.  Obviously being far softer than desk top software the providers can also provide the systems with far lower overheads than the monopolies.

Consequently, whilst I would agree there are bound to be casualties I just can not agree with your "most will go bust".  There have been similar discussions on a separate Cloud discussion group, if you're not a member have a look: https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/group/cloud-accounting-discussion-group

Back to me, there's risk in everything and perhaps I've been around too long to get too worried about this sort of stuff, ie there's far worse things out there that are going to get me.  So I've gone with Iris's choice of system and, as I say, do full downloads of data on a regular basis, bring on the risk....s/he who dares etc etc.

 

Thanks (0)
avatar
By jasonholden
24th Feb 2011 18:13

.

I disagree that most will go bust, unlike on premise software where there are only a few big players I think the online market is inherently different, the first difference being the expectation for speed of innovation from the users, big players (like SAGE) simply cannot move this fast, next all the different providers are slightly different in their appeal, FreeAgent is known in the freelancer/contractor market, Twinfield is known for being a bigger solution and so on, whereas SAGE has a one size fits all approach.

Although for such a new market there will always be those who do not survive, I also think we will be left with more players than in the on premise market, if for no other reason than with great size often comes sluggishness and in this market there is not the same appetite for that, they have to innovate quickly, and moving forward I think we will see more link ups with other complimentary software, something that a bigger company would struggle with.

That said, you need to choose carefully, after all I wouldn't want to be the accountant who put all my clients on cheapbooksonline.co.com to find 18 months later the servers are off and the company has vanished.

Jason

Holden Associates

Thanks (0)
Adrian Pearson
By Adrian Pearson
24th Feb 2011 20:53

Totally agree Jason - and I have already written about it

Jason, I think you have highlighted one of the big issues here - one I wrote about on my blog and also on IT Counts.

We are now in a post "Big-two" world and, for accountants, there is a challenge not faced since the mid-eighties, when there was an explosion of (PC-based) bookkeeping software.

With a huge range of software avalilable to clients, how will firms address the training, licensing and support problem arising from working with all these systems?

Adrian @topaccountants

 

Thanks (0)
avatar
By cymraeg_draig
24th Feb 2011 22:59

Online firms going bust

It doesnt matter if they all go bust or if just one goes bust - if that one is the one you are using, youre in deep doo doo.

 

Thanks (0)
Adrian Pearson
By Adrian Pearson
25th Feb 2011 08:51

Getting some perspective

It's unlikely that an online accounting provider (or on-premise one for that matter) going bust will be a disaster for its users - inconvenient, yes, disaster no.

This is because, as history has shown, there will always be a continuing provider happy to take over the assets. The customer base and software code would be transferred to the acquirer, ensuring that users can continue working with the old software.

It is, of course, very likely that the new provider will soon decide to "migrate" users of the old software over to their own offering but that's commercial life, and happens usually in solvent, friendly acquisitions too.

Let's get things in perspective here please, and try to stick to the original thread subject as much as possible, as this is clearly a topic that's important to many.

Adrian @topaccountants

Thanks (0)
avatar
By jasonholden
25th Feb 2011 08:55

.

I remember when I started my training contract in 1987 and the practice had a 'young whizz kid ACA' who thought computerised bookkeeping had a future, the older staff/partners did not agree, what about security, what if the company goes bust, what if .....................

What I am surprised about is that this forum of accountants don't seem capable of doing their own due diligence in this matter, this is something we did in 2005 before we went with winweb, we got assurances to cover the what ifs (well as far as you can regarding security as I am sure no one can give 100% certainty).

I mentioned this to Stefan Töpfer yesterday and asked him how he would respond today, on behalf of winweb, to the very valid concerns of accountants with this new method of working; I have reproduced his reply below without alteration:

Hi Jason,

couple of points:

1. the problem could occur, especially with new entrance to the market, as accounting software as a whole is under thread, online or boxed, by collaboration suites like WinWeb, NetSuite and others - only doing accounting software is not enough;

2. we have always had the policy that if we went out of business, without a follow on company, we would make the software OpenSource;

3. all good cloud computing vendors allow for .csv export of all data, so it can easily reimported into other applications.

4. We are now into our 17th year and consider ourselves in no danger of going under any time soon, especially as the market seems to be maturing now. We have always been self-financed, and because of this do not face the same problems other vendors do. We do not owe any third party any money beyond the normal 30day payment terms.

Hope this helps.

Stefan Töpfer - CEO & Chairman

 

Back in 2005 we went further and made provision that if winweb failed and the software went opensource we could get all our clients data and start to host everything ourselves, the only change would be the login site.

Regarding security, everything is now becoming 256 bit encryption, I have also noticed of late more sites using McAfee SECURE, maybe this is another way of adding to the confidence of those who have security concerns.

As Adrian says the last time we had a similar situation with software was the 80s with Sage and it was Pegasus at that time who was number 2 (although much better software than Sage), I also remember to doom sayers who said its the end for accountants, not so, we are still here, and like many on here I am sure, we also still have (a few, 2 I think) clients who use pen and paper for their record keeping even after 20+ years of bookkeeping software.

I think too many are getting bent out of shape about SaaS, its a choice, but IMO its a choice for your client to make not you as the accountant, if you only want online clients good for you but you are closing the door on a lot of business, yes online has advantages that our clients see, but not all clients need this level of input from us, so for some pen and paper or excel is just fine.

Jason

Holden Associates

Thanks (0)