General English gripe

General English gripe

Didn't find your answer?

I don't know about you, but it seems to me that the general standard of English in this forum leaves a lot to be desired. I know that people type in a hurry and I understand that for a fair number of questioners English (probably)isn't their first language, but that doesn't excuse incorrect spelling and a reasonable stab at grammar. Bad spelling's a pet hate of mine.

I'm the first to admit that my English isn't perfect, but if I can make an effort why can't others? For what it's worth, I refuse to answer any question where the person asking the question can't be bothered to do me the courtesy of at least getting their spelling correct.
Mark Woolley

Replies (42)

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By Albasas
20th May 2002 13:45

Niki.....No Time For Light Relief?
THE INTERNET IS A FORM OF INFORMAL COMMUNICATION AS IS THIS POST AND EVERY OTHER ON AWEB, (SEE EXCLUISION CLAUSES BELOW ETC.)

SERIOUS DUDES GIVE THE PROFESSION A BAD NAME AS IT IS, YOU COULD JOIN ANOTHER SITE PROVIDER OF ACCOUNTANCY NEWS- SO PLEASE DON'T DEHUMANIZE THIS SITE.

Apologises as usual for any spelling, graamar mistakes in advance!

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By AnonymousUser
23rd Apr 2002 02:05

for mr.mackay
cor - it works!!

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By Mark Woolley
24th Apr 2002 20:33

I'd love to let this go, but ....
I'd like to think that AN Anorak is someone other than Robert Mitchell, but maybe that's being too suspicious.

It seems I was right - Robert is argumentative and confrontational. Pity really I'm sure he's not a bad person if you got to know him, although most of what he's written here isn't worth reading.

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By AnonymousUser
22nd Apr 2002 13:44

in perspective
as a non-accountant, i hope i am not out of place to say that this forum seems to have turned to a everyday disrespectful bickering match.


perhaps to give a good example of english and put all in perspective and dampen the present situation subscribers should click on -

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,61-274840,00.html

the impact of good written english will be found there.

i suggest this is read.

while there read 'nature notes' for more excellent everyday composition.


p.s. if someone knows how to put the web address above with a blue click-on, i would be obliged.

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By Abacjm
22nd Apr 2002 15:51

Occluded Front
Occluded front was used as a deliberate metaphor to denote the clash of the "hot air" of the Chancellor's claims to assist small business meeting up with the "cold reality" of that not at all meaning small unincorporated businesses. Why does he not differentiate between the two types of small businesses- incorporated/unincorporated?
I should think that the latter are equally entitled to tax saving measures, but not according to our Mr Brown. Therefore, as in other occluded fronts, my comments were geared to "rain" on his parade!
So, Mr Scotch Mist, fill up my glass, or should I say Phillip McLass! Cheers!

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By Abacjm
22nd Apr 2002 15:55

Blue click-on address
Edward,
I think that our good friend, Jay Tanna once supplied the answer to this one by suggesting that you preface the web-site address with http:// That guarantees that it will appear in Everton colours! LOL!

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By User deleted
20th Apr 2002 10:57

Occlude
Is it where a cold front meets a warm front and stops there? Due to the gas absorption flows taking place between an area of high and low pressure. Usually dumping lots of rain in the process. Warm air meets cold air and rain results.

One of these fronts was stuck over Ireland and the Western Isles of Scotland during the week. Here in Glasgow we could feel the heat/sun to the south and east but looking seaward to the west down the Firth of Clyde and over to the Atlantic Ocean the skys were leaden with cloud. Ireland was very wet on Wednesday.

John may have been using this as a metaphor or something to describe his take on things. He probably picked it up in the weather forecast for his own area then! But OCCLUDED scores no points in a game of Countdown. Not in The Little Oxford. Occlusion is though!

Doo! Roo! Doo! Roo! Roo! Roo! Boing! Well that's time contestants.....

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By Accounting WEB
22nd Apr 2002 08:43

MARK WOOLEY ETC FORGET........
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO READ IT! DO YOU?

AWEB DO THE CENSORSHIP NOT YOU MARK!

YOUR COMMENTS ARE JUST ELITIST.

YOU'VE BEEN STARING AT THESE COMMENTS FOR OVER A WEEK NOW, AND THIS POSTING BELOW IS THE BEST YOU CAN DO?

ROBERT MITCHELL IS NOT THE ONLY ONE HAVING A GO AT YOU HERE!

I RECCOMMEND YOU GET YOURSELF A HOBBY TO KEEP YOU OCCUPIED, TRAINSPOTTING OR SOMETHING.

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By Accounting WEB
22nd Apr 2002 09:29

Anonymity
Good to see that those people who criticise have the courage to put their names to their postings! Well done Mr Anorak, you should be congratulated!

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By Mark Woolley
21st Apr 2002 17:35

Ouch! Robert
do you make a point of being argumentative and confrontational? The whole point of this thread was that correct spelling's a courtesy to the reader - and it doesn't matter whether I'm writing to a client or to anyone reading this forum. Nothing more nothing less. Everyone's entitled to their opinion & if that includes pendantry so be it, but don't expect me to agree with it.

It wouldn't be difficult to take umbrage with some of your comments, but I'm not about to rise to your bait. I'm sure everyone reading this is adult enough to expect nothing less,

Rgds

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By AnonymousUser
17th Apr 2002 11:05

Pipe Down
One of the worst offenders is the AVN literature (my favourite, apart from the ubiquitous aberrant apostrophe, being Steve's use of the word "itinery"). When challenged he says it is unimportant.

On reflection: he is richer than me so perhaps he has a point?

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By Albasas
17th Apr 2002 09:44

The Essentials Of Pacific Rim English
The worst examples, I know, of 'bad english' are not here at AWeb but in the DIY/Leisure Industry, especially the instructions within self-assembly packs of furniture. It just goes to show how much is lost in interpretation. Part of the fun is/can be seeing the end results if the instructions are followed to the letter by the British consumer. Funnily enough the spelling is perfect!¬

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By AnonymousUser
16th Apr 2002 20:05

the great bard
much hath bene whritten abote the buty oth te englith language.

offello and mid-summers nite's dreme wilth shew te advantage of a classical education.

did latin and greek at school. even the subject to o level standard, as it was, now gse, will always extend your knowledge of the english language and a great deal more. something difficult to explain, but like having learnt to play a musical instrument and being taught elementary musical appreciation, harmony, etc. something that is always with you even, in this world, it does not specifically 'earn the brass'.

in simple translations at school of greek and latin stories and history convinces one more and more of the fact that we modern day members of the genus humanus are nothing exceptional in person or ability excepting wrecking everything we in the genus need for survival today and future generations.

as they say in the states - 'point'!

never underestimate a good and fulfilled education.

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By AnonymousUser
16th Apr 2002 20:16

By heck
What a commotion (or is that comotion).

In letters that are sent to clients, fellow professionals and the Revenue, I insist on correct grammar, logical progression in the thought process to give a clear message of the question, issues and then answer. When I see e mails being sent I am more relaxed. Provided the grammar is correct and the technical content is correct I will allow a more informal style.

I try to encourage trainees to use dictaphones. They are probably now old fashioned but they do produce an end product that flows a bit more like speech but still allows the possibility of re-drafting. I realise that I have just used a euphemism. Trainees are made to use dictaphones until they realise how useful they can be.

As you can see, I am not a great believer in using short words for the sake of it if there is one word that is absolutely spot on.

I hate the way that got or get is used. "I once got a paper that had got an article in it that really got me annoyed so that I had to get a drink to calm down." Do you get what I am saying or see what I am getting at?

Does that make me a pedant?

In giving answers to A Web, I usually do not re-read. As a result, you receive first draft with typos.

I do have one further comment. I love the way language changes. New words arrive and new practices arise. I even saw some learned piece that that said it was perfectly alright (or is that all right) to deliberately split an infinitive.

I have now got to the end.

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By AnonymousUser
16th Apr 2002 20:31

Changes
"But you do not begin a sentence with but," I said. I thought that the use of the word but to begin a sentence was, and is, incorrect. But I read one of the Charles Dickens' Christmas novels and that mannerism leapt out at me. But I thought that the use of the word but to begin a sentence was a modern invention. But I was wrong.

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By AnonymousUser
16th Apr 2002 20:51

poor accounting english - pots and kettles
I recently purchased, from accountingweb, the excel programming training material - if you want to see the meaning of bad grammar and bad style- try reading it - a painful process. What is worse is that it is password protected so it cannot be corrected.

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By AnonymousUser
17th Apr 2002 09:12

Excel programming text
Thank you Stephen for your comments concerning the excel programming training material. I would be grateful if you could quote some examples of bad grammar and style. I can then discuss these with the producer of the training material.

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By AnonymousUser
17th Apr 2002 09:55

Handwriting
While I agree with everything said by Mark Woolley, what about the decline in legible handwriting? Standards are appalling, notably among accountants.

P.S. Could AccountingWeb please provide a spellcheck for these comments?

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By neileg
17th Apr 2002 09:33

Mr. Baron
You said "The entry in the e-mail from AccountingWeb asked whether accountants were among the worst offenders."

I think you meant to say "amongst"!

It's good fun this, ain't it?

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By AnonymousUser
16th Apr 2002 18:05

Using the right verbs
The entry in the e-mail from AccountingWeb asked whether accountants were among the worst offenders.

My pet hate is the tax adviser who advises his client to gift £3,000 a year in order to utilise her inheritance tax annual exemption. "To gift" is simply wrong: the verb is "give" (preterite "gave", past participle "given"). "To utilise" may not be wrong, but the verb "to use" is shorter and more elegant.

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By Albasas
17th Apr 2002 11:55

Page 888
Will The Budget come with subtitles today for The English without a knowledge of the Scots tongue?

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By AnonymousUser
16th Apr 2002 12:23

aberrant apostrophe, missing comma

Mr Neale,
There should not be an apostrophe in the possessive form of the word 'its'.

Wendy,
You failed to isolate the vocative with a comma.

Pedantry rules, OK?

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By User deleted
16th Apr 2002 13:31

Plain English Campaign
How about an AWeb Workshop, (pipes, beards and copies of Socialist Worker optional), on the subject of the common abuse of the English language, (UK version), or similar, by accountants etc?

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By neileg
15th Apr 2002 16:47

A bit of chat
Robert, I agree. Let's face it, whatever we say or do here, indeed much of what we do in the day job, is hardly going to change the course of mankind.

It's nice to air our firmly held views, though, even if only for the mental exercise.

Live long and prosper and divvent drap ya doddle on the proggie mat!

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By User deleted
15th Apr 2002 17:07

Your grammar Mr Woolley
In your reply of 14th April, 2002 at 14:03 entitled "CIA?" you used "&" instead of "and". This surely is bad grammar!
And what does "Rgds" mean? Surely not "Regards".A perfectionist like yourself would never use such abbreviations!!!!!

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By AnonymousUser
15th Apr 2002 17:34

Czar or Tsar

Both are correct because they are transliterated from the Cyrillic.

I once foolishly asked a client who was becoming a friend, "Why do you spell your name, Ramaswami, and your mother, Ramaswamy?" The answer was obvious; they are both spelled in oriental squiggles so there is no correct English version.

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By Albasas
15th Apr 2002 18:00

Chomsky
Recommended for those interested in the power of and manipulation of the written and spoken word.

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By AnonymousUser
16th Apr 2002 10:22

View from down under
Good old British pedantry. Pleased to see it exists in all it's glory!! Almost makes me homesick...

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By Abacjm
13th Apr 2002 02:44

The Gospel According to John, Mark!
Probably because the keyboard cannot keep up with their fingers - that is my excuse anyway, Mark!
English was not my first language but Gaelic. I learned English on Primary 1 starting with "Yes Miss," "No Miss" and finally understanding what "Sit up straight, boy!" meant.
I then learned French and Bad Language in High School. I have always been a keen reader, especially during my teenage years, so I found that that helped expand my vocabulary immensely. Poor spelling does annoy me too, especially from professionals, but one can understand when a transposition error occurs - a bit like Eric Morecambe's famous sketch with Andre Previn (or Preview - as he called him). Having been accused of playing the wrong notes on the piano by Andre, Eric got up off his seat, walked round the piano and caught him by the lapels of his dinner suit and said, "Listen, Sonny! I am playing ALL the right notes, but not necessarily in the CORRECT order!"
My main gripe is when the same word is listed on numerous occasions with the same mistake or sentences that begin with "And"
On the other hand maybe the whole answer is that English is now being condensed by mobile phone texting to "Mitxt42day"

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By Albasas
13th Apr 2002 07:50

Get A Life Mark!
Good golly Miss Molly, look what you've started.

Have you ever thought of becoming an english teacher or something?

The 'net is an informal telecommunications network linking up the globe. A breath of fresh air in the otherwise serious world of accountancy. Don't take bad grammar and spelling to literally here. First take/draft is usually the best anyway, it conveys all the human nuances of the message. Formal business letters etc are something else entirely. I therefore think you have missed the point of the www web entirely. When do you join the CIA?

Chill out!

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By Accounting WEB
13th Apr 2002 19:29

English, what english?

Me no english!

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By Mark Woolley
14th Apr 2002 14:03

CIA?
What's the CIA got to do with this? - and while I'm at it I hope this has started something.

John's analogy's very valid & fully understood, but if it's true that the first draft is usually the best (which I don't believe), that still doesn't excuse bad spelling & grammar. Anything worth saying usually takes more than one pass to get a written message across, if it's thought through and not drafted on the hoof. It would be wrong to use the internet as an excuse to dilute the proper use of English.

I don't see the difference between the care taken in writing to clients and the care taken in drafting questions to this forum - it's a matter of courtesy. Nothing more. If other people can't be bothered why should I?

Oh and by the way Robert, (a) as FD of a web development company I think I'm fully aware of what the web's about, and (b) it's commonly acknowledged amongst my friends and colleagues that I'm one of the more laid back people they know,

Rgds

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By Accounting WEB
14th Apr 2002 23:40

perhaps this just the hobby!

perhaps this forum is just the hobby or past time so who cares about spellings and/or grammer!

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By Tonykelly
15th Apr 2002 00:01

agree up to a point
I agree with mr. wooley up to a point.
If I am hoping for some good input to a question then the least I can do is to make sure other people can read and understand the question.
However, i would guess that there are a lot of people who use this forum where English is not their first language. there is no harm in making allowances for these people.
Also, it is very easy to hit the wrong key on the keyboard and not notice the error. it can be difficult to read text on screen sometimes. Again I will take this into account.
I think courtesy is at least as important. The manner in which a question is framed will sometimes determine the response.
This forum is still quite useful despite the lack of perfick english in various places.

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By AnonymousUser
15th Apr 2002 09:52

Grammar and punctuation?
Edward

Good to see that you were not taught proper grammar and punctuation in your education that started nearly 50 years ago.

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By AnonymousUser
15th Apr 2002 02:15

english
first. i have often noticed that accountants are about the worst in the written english word.

secondly. have you ever reflected in the hundreds of millions of an hours put to teaching and learning the english language. also the sore tempers, wealding of the cane, millions of gallons of tears, etc., etc., etc.!!

all seems a complete waste as at elementary schools everything, spell check, prose organization, etc. is all done at the pushing of a button. language translation as well!

in the u.s. 50 dollars will buy you a plug in into which you talk and it appears typed on the screen ready for button no. 2 to be pushed for transmittion some 12,000 miles away. and that takes only 0.00000000000000000000001 of a second.

i expect the time of such a menial task as pressing button no.2 will soon be over.

can education keep up with it.

still, never regret the traumas in learning english starting nearly fifty years ago!! - latin as well!!

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By AnonymousUser
15th Apr 2002 14:08

Poor example
Perhaps the trouble is that we are set such a poor example by Accountingweb. As I type this I can see the instruction below which says, "Note: You must complete all the above information to sucessfully post your comments" (sic.).

There are at least three errors in that statement; a punctuational one (there should be no capital letter after a colon), a spelling one (there should be a double 'c' in 'successfully') and a split infinitive. (I say at least three errors because I suspect that there are others, eg there should be the word 'of' between 'all' and 'the'.)

There goes my invitation to the next Accountingweb get-together.

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By neileg
15th Apr 2002 11:54

Robert
I heartily endorse your final comment.

But I feel free to comment that being pedantic, old-fashioned, nit-picking and even an old git, does not prevent someone's view from being correct.

Grammar, spelling and punctuation are not about mindless rules imposed for the sake of it. They have evolved so that the written message and the nuances of meaning surrounding the message can be conveyed to the reader.

That is not to say that you can preserve the language in a hermetic environment like the French have tried unsuccessfully to do. English is a language that thrives on absorbing words, construction and modes of use from other languages and from all cultures.

What an older generation would have regarded as mis-spelling or bad grammar, can become part of modern accepted useage. However, completely disregarding the established order leaves the written word as bland and un-demonstrative as the shorthand used in texting.

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By AnonymousUser
15th Apr 2002 12:28

tanks veri much tu 'anon'.
yes, i was brout up too reed and writ properli. spelling and punktuaton as wel, grama also.

hit on hand, acros fingers, on derier, etsetera. so ad tu get it rite.

feer and much howly toyl saw to it. pages and howrs and howrs of detention as wel.

not alowed to use kalculators until at uneevursitee.

now awl confoosed as everithink is a matta of pressink butons.

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By AnonymousUser
15th Apr 2002 14:58

Spelling tsar or is it czar?
Don't worry Phil, we will still speak to you. In all seriousness, thanks for pointing out the spelling mistake. We do try and minimise the number of incorrect spellings on the site but unfortunately as the site grows this is becoming a more pressing issue. (I am now completely paranoid about typing something incorrectly as I type...)

As regards to the idea of a spell-checker, I agree this is an excellent idea. This has been noted and will be passed on to our tech team for possible incorporation into our next upgrade.

Finally this thread has got me thinking - perhaps AccountingWEB should appoint a community spelling czar (or is that tsar?)

Thanks

Richard Norton
Community Manager
AccountingWEB

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By Albasas
15th Apr 2002 14:57

A Bit Of A Chat.......That's All!
Neil, since you ask, I agree that standards are there for a good reason. Being pendantic is OK in the right forum, as I hinted at earlier. However AWeb is hardly the place to conduct a 'double-english' lesson, again see earlier posting.

I am myself not particularly good at English, due to the do what you like 60's free-form thinking generation of school teachers, but I get by all the same. However, I am in very good company judging by what I read on this site!

It would be a shame if people were afraid to post something because they were frightened of being judged a moron by the english technocrats.

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By User deleted
15th Apr 2002 14:26

Wot no spell checker
I trained and achieved 50 words per min typing, but now rely on the spellchecker to correct the efforts of my increasingly dyslexic fingers. Without one I have just spent 10 mins typing this short phrase.
Accounting Web PLEASE supply a spell check in your next update.

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