I have a sore head - a bit confused

This is the problem you have - you've chosen software that is not integrated. in practice a lot of time (and therefore money) can be saved with efficient software. It's a false economy trying to do it on the cheap.

When I was tax editor of good old Aweb I did a survey of products and was, well quite disappointed at how unjoined up it all was, since then I have been following the market and looking at some of the software in the firms that I work with, and do you know what? No one seems particularly happy with what they have, but integrated packages seem to be the way to go. Costly, but they tick all the boxes.

You could also consider using a CRM package as these do just about most things, some come cheap and are a very good way of keeping track of your clients, although not so good on the invoicing /illing, but that side can be done via an accounts package in any case.

Hi Anonymous

I know you have no idea but I am sure there are plenty of people that know it’s best to get things right from the start than shovel yourself into a hole that it’s not easy to get out of.

What’s the point of getting a collection of software that won’t be any good for any efficient practice? It’s better to invest in good integrated software even if it means borrow money from the bank. If you definitely can’t afford more than £300 you would be better off in using Outlook, Word and Excel for now and consider an integrated package later.

You are heading for disaster if you don’t seem interested in knowing how long it takes you to do jobs.

Anon - can you post back if you get this - I've been looking at it too and I am very tempted indeed

I have been inpractice for 10 years on my own without filling in a single timesheet, without any "disasters".  You get a feel for what to charge and whether you have over or undercharged.  I would rather have happy clients on a reasonable fixed fee and not bill for every last minute of time I spend on their work.

How do you know which jobs make you a reasonable amount of money for the time spent and which don't?

You get a feel for it.  I know roughly how long each job takes, and which clients are always asking silly questions.    It may not be totally scientific, and wouldn't work if I had anyone working for me, but messing about with timesheets can be time wasting and soul destroying too.  No disasters so far.

I don't find recording costs soul destroying. Why is it soul destroying?

You make your own choice about what is material. If you don't want to record a two minute conversation that isn't a sensible reason for not using time sheets.

I have an Excel file with a sheet for each of my clients. I do work and then enter it on their sheet. How long does that take?

I'm likely to get Digita Time and Fees soon.

Hi there, don't want to make an issue out of this but questioning and criticism can be constructive. Peter may have been a little dismissive in his approach but he and others, perhaps with years of experience, are likely to have a valid point to contribute.  From my own point of view (and don't tell them this) I'd pay many times more for IRIS practice management than I do, it is the glue that holds everything "client" together and, with hindsight, had it been around when I was setting up my own spreadsheets, database & bits of paper, decades ago I'd have jumped at it.

As already mentioned integrating systems at the start of a business or process is so much more effecient than attempting to do it years later.  The classic case I came across was a large long established firm where the tax partner & staff had grown up with product X, accounts with product Y and admin with homebuilt access database that was exactly what they needed but couldn't link to accounts or tax client data.  Whilst they all agreed that integration was the obvious solution they could not all agree on one product as each would need to compromise too much.

Your question is not new, search for "client database".  I remembered one and found it at: www.accountingweb.co.uk/item/175701 it was over 2 years ago but maybe some of the contributors found or developed a solution?

Good Luck

Know it is not the prime topic here but, as always, an innocent mention of keeping or not keeping timesheets lights a firework.

Whatever method you use to arrive at the price you charge the client is valid as long as it keeps you, the client and your bank manager happy.  I kept timesheets & WIP records for over 25 years dropped them 2 years ago and am still here and all 3 of us are a lot happier than we were.

The key to my conversion was realising that the client doesn't give a toss how many hours it takes me to do the accounts, s/he just wants a set of accounts and wants a price for it.  If I use my time and systems more effeciently this year and prepare them in half the time I did last year, it's loopy to believe I should halve the fee.

Time pricing is wholly accountant focussed (ie my time @ my chargeout rate), so without it I can now consider value to client, meaning I can charge £100 to client A & £200 to client B for essentially the same piece of work.

Similarly, I don't need timesheets to control or "cost" the work, yes I'll judge that I can fit in those 5 jobs over the next 3 days but that's as close I get to thinking of time, I'm far more interested in evaluating the quality of what the client's given me, risk assessment and planning how best to do the work and these are all compared to preset & agreed specs.

Without the need to record time you can agree fees for the year's work at the start of the year agreeing standing orders for payment. So even if you end up making the same money you did last year with timesheets you have done it with no need to record/manage, time, WIP or debtors and, in April/May you know the minimum fees you'll make for the year ahead.  Works for me.

“The client is not buying time”

Are you saying that an airline that sells tickets to a destination shouldn’t record their use of fuel because they are not selling fuel to their customers? You don’t have to be selling something to make it sensible to keep a record of it.

“Whatever method you use to arrive at the price you charge the client is valid as long as it keeps you, the client and your bank manager happy.”

So, when you prepare your invoice, if you charge £500 if it’s cold, £1,000 if it’s warm and £1,500 if it’s hot then because you only need £500 to survive, you don’t owe the bank manager anything, and your client would pay £2,000 for the work then it doesn’t matter that you paid your staff £1,500 to do the work – then the method of pricing is valid? You may make any losses up on other jobs but I wouldn’t recommend that is a valid method.

“I kept timesheets & WIP records for over 25 years dropped them 2 years ago and am still here and all 3 of us are a lot happier than we were.”

What is it that makes you so irrationally unhappy about keeping records of time? It doesn’t take me long to note down when I start and end working on a job. Whether I have set a fixed price for the work or I am basing it on time doesn’t worry me. I still like to know how much time I have spent on a job in relation to the fee I am receiving.

“The key to my conversion was realising that the client doesn't give a toss how many hours it takes me to do the accounts, s/he just wants a set of accounts and wants a price for it.”

You are not recording your time for the clients benefit as much as your own.

“If I use my time and systems more effeciently this year and prepare them in half the time I did last year, it's loopy to believe I should halve the fee.”

Good point. Pity nobody is suggesting that.

“Time pricing is wholly accountant focussed (ie my time @ my chargeout rate), so without it I can now consider value to client, meaning I can charge £100 to client A & £200 to client B for essentially the same piece of work.”

I think you are confusing time pricing with time recording.

“Similarly, I don't need timesheets to control or "cost" the work, yes I'll judge that I can fit in those 5 jobs over the next 3 days but that's as close I get to thinking of time, I'm far more interested in evaluating the quality of what the client's given me, risk assessment and planning how best to do the work and these are all compared to preset & agreed specs.”

You may be more interested in a lot of things but that doesn’t mean that how long it takes you to do some work is irrelevant if you are billing your client for that work.

“Without the need to record time you can agree fees for the year's work at the start of the year agreeing standing orders for payment.”

Why can’t you agree fees for the year’s work at the start of the year and agree standing orders for payment and record time?

“So even if you end up making the same money you did last year with timesheets you have done it with no need to record/manage, time, WIP or debtors and, in April/May you know the minimum fees you'll make for the year ahead.”

I would suggest that anybody who finds it difficult or distressing to record their time may not be suited to accounting.

“Works for me.”

I’m sure the drunks sat on the park bench say the same.

Hi Peter – I really don’t have a problem with others keeping timesheets, as I said, I did for over 25 years, and never found it “difficult or distressing” filling out my time sheet or playing with all the client & staff stats that they produced but I came to realise that I could obtain the same results without doing all that and, in fact, two years down the line, not being preoccupied with just one element of what it takes to generate a service/product, has meant that the results are better.

I’m not just talking about £s here I’m talking about all the other indicators people use to determine whether their business and is healthy or not. Also, I’ve double checked and can’t see any reference to time recording skills being a requirement to qualify as an accountant.

You ask why I don’t agree fees and payments AND record time and my answer is because I don’t need to, does it not make sense to drop something that has become archaic or unnecessary?

I am not confused over the various uses of time recording, ie pricing, costing or time management. Many firms still use time sheets to determine the fee, they may estimate a fee to a client but ultimately the fee they charge will be based on time @ varying charge rates.

Others (like me over many years and you I think) will use it to “cost” the job but given that I don’t use subbies paid by the hour for each job, ie I have salaried people whose salaries and related costs are fixed, trying to unitise their salaries to convert them to a variable cost doesn't work for me.  So now, if I ever needed a subby to do a set of accounts, I’d set out exactly what I needed, show them the books, give them a deadline and ask them for a fixed price for the work.

I now have other methods to judge if the job or client is worthwhile to the firm similarly, whilst keeping timesheets for time management may have been state of the art in the 1950s, when it first hit the scene (even for accountants), times move on and some numbers on a spreadsheet really don’t do the job for me anymore.

Each to their own eh, drunk or not?

“I really don’t have a problem with others keeping timesheets”

I didn’t suggest you did. You give the impression that you had found the true way.

“not being preoccupied with just one element of what it takes to generate a service/product”

Wouldn’t it make more sense to rid yourself of your preoccupation rather than rid yourself of recording this vital element.

“Also, I’ve double checked and can’t see any reference to time recording skills being a requirement to qualify as an accountant.”

There’s a lot of skills that you don’t need to qualify as an accountant but possessing them would still make you a better accountant.

“You ask why I don’t agree fees and payments AND record time and my answer is because I don’t need to, does it not make sense to drop something that has become archaic or unnecessary?”

Because you don’t need to doesn’t mean it is archaic and unnecessary. You don’t need to use integrated accounting software but that doesn’t make it archaic and unnecessary and I doubt whether you would want to drop it.

“I have salaried people whose salaries and related costs are fixed, trying to unitise their salaries to convert them to a variable cost doesn't work for me.”

Why not? If they work an estimated number of chargeable hours a year for a fixed salary plus employers NIC and other related costs it is easy to work out a cost per hour. You can factor in other overheads and profits if you want but it’s not difficult. It gives you a figure to aim at on a job even if it’s a minimum or a maximum(!?).

In the case of subcontractors on a fixed fee obviously you don’t need timesheets for them but there would still be your time to take into account. I don’t think it’s sufficient to say you can remember your time over each and every client.

“I now have other methods to judge if the job or client is worthwhile to the firm”

Recording time doesn’t mean you don’t use judgement. It simply means you take more of the relevant factors into account.

“whilst keeping timesheets for time management may have been state of the art in the 1950s, when it first hit the scene (even for accountants), times move on and some numbers on a spreadsheet really don’t do the job for me anymore.”

I recommend you don’t try to keep up with the latest fashion. It is much better to judge what is useful to you.

Dear OP

For £300 I would save your money and use Outlook and Excel until you can afford something worth buying.

No probs & apologies for adding wings to the time debate.  Also, to Peter, I am perfectly entitled to share my experience with others, that's what this site is for, take it or leave it  As I said right at the start whatever method you use to arrive at the price you charge the client is valid as long as it keeps you, the client and your bank manager happy.

I'm off now to check out the latest fashions, even if they are retro (1500 - 1950).

“Peter, I am perfectly entitled to share my experience with others, that's what this site is for, take it or leave it “

Of course you are entitled to share your experiences. But when you say: “The client is not buying time” as a justification for not recording time then you will have to accept that your comment will be exposed for the nonsense it is.

Try Rapport from practicenet, Its in your budget I believe, and although not perfect, its the best I could find, The best thing I find is what its calls "snapshots", these are reports that pull whatever data you choose from various clients and display it in a spreadsheet type format - very good for looking at all your jobs and seeing where you are with them. The database isn't setup straight out the box and takes a bit of time to get it how you want.

I picked it in august 09 after looking around for 18 months and after trying logical office. I liked the guys from logical office, very friendly and helpful, but their product didnt work for me.