The illusive 'good' accountant
Having worked in the finance industry for more years than I care to mention, I have had involvement with numerous accountants. Many, I have found , to be set in their ways and happy to depend on the initials after their name and the sign on the premises to bring in clients. Occasionally I have chanced across the odd gem, who has a fantastic approach to clients, revels in being up to date with new tax changes and approaches to practice, and keen to share information and ideas amongst colleagues and other professionals. Having moved location and changed my career to bookkeeping recently, I am finding it difficult to locate accountants with a pro-active outlook. The majority of accountants I contact seem to dismiss me - "send me a letter with some details about you". I'm not sure I really want to strike up a business relationship with an accountant who has that sort of attitude, and whilst I know that bookkeeping isn't something requested every day by clients, I also know there are significant financial benefits for the accountant who can get a bookkeeper to manage clients' bookkeeping to their advantage - not to mention that the bookkeeper may bring in/recommend new clients for the accountant. Why are so many accountants so short sighted. Does anyone have any ideas on how to go about getting a 'good' accountant, both to work with, share good practice and ideas with, and to recommend to my clients.
It's only words
"pro-active" is the most overused word I know in business. "Passion" may have overtaken it. Both words are used by morons in abundance.
Perhaps I am being stupid here.........
........... but do I understand that it is you who are looking for work? albeit with the possibility of your recommending your clients to someone else?
If someone with your apparent attitude contacted me, I would probably just ask for something in writing too and then promptly forget about you. No doubt you would think I was a boring old f**t too! Remember that striking up "a business relationship with an accountant" is very much a two way thing.
If you are as good as you think you are, and if you sell yourself correctly, you will certainly be snapped up.
Have you been snapped up?
Jumping to conclusions
Hi Ian
I think maybe you are jumping to conclusions about the accountants who ask you to send them some details about yourself. Maybe they are very busy, maybe they have more their own bookkeepers or maybe they already are up-to-date 'pro-active' etc etc and have already made firm contacts with other good quality bookkeepers? When I set up my tax consultancy business, I approached local accountants who wouldn't have their own tax specialists. I went in person, was frieindly to their reception staff, but took a letter of introduction to leave whether or not they found time to see me. If they did find time to talk to me I was very grateful. If they didn't, I wasn't offended or assumed they weren't any good at their job - just that they were busy and, since they didn't know me from Adam, had no incentive to talk to me . And sometimes, months (or , in one case, years) after, you get a call or email out of the blue when something comes up and they remember you. And suddenly you have a great client.
But - and it's a big but - most of my new clients don't come from direct marketing of that type but come from referrals from other accountants who have used my services and pass my name on ('cause most accountants do share information with other accountants!) or from other professionals. If you have worked in finance before, do you have contacts from your former life who could put a word in for you?
Good luck with your new business.
Regards
Cathy
The elusive good book-keeper
Book-keeping almost invariably involves direct contact with clients, often in their offices where book-keeping is performed on-site. Any sensible accountant is therefore painfully aware that, more than anyone else, the book-keeper will project the firm's image to that client. You don't just put anyone in that role.
If the attitude displayed in your opening post is coming through in your contacts with accountants I'm not surprised none of them will take you on. They probably fear that you'll show the same sort of attitude to clients and end up losing them business. If you really want to work you need to lose the chip on your shoulder that those with letters just sit on their laurels. My experience is that there are good and bad accountants in both the qualified and unqualified camps. If you want someone to take you on then your default position should be respect until proved undeserved, not the other way around.
On a related note, your opening post being a block of text makes it very hard to read. If you are sending in letters like this (as well as using wrong words as already pointed out) then this is also going to stand against you. Failure to present information in a clear and accurate manner are also not desirable qualities of a book-keeper.
What does the future hold?
Ian
I would say that accountants are in a good position to know how useful bookkeepers are.
They also prefer to deal with mature people rather than immature people. Make sure you are mature if you want to get on in accounting.
Your response can continue to consist of insults but things wont get better until you realise what you are doing wrong and can convince your clients that you can do a good job for them and follow it up by doing a good job.
Some people have 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years bookkeeping experien
Paul
I think you are doing Ian a disservice. He'll continue to think that he's a fantastic bookkeeper (nay accountant) and he only needs to find one accountant that sees his quality. He will be hoping that they don't dwell too much on his lack of bookkeeping experience and why a "career change" was necessary.
Attitude
Different accountants have different requirements and different ways of working, but, I don't think any accountant is going to take kindly to being "judged" by someone far less qualified than them.
Certainly we run a "relaxed" practice where QBE's are treated as equals (and paid the same for doing the same), but, if someone, whether a bookkeeper, a QBE or indeed a full qualified, came in with an attitude that they were in some way superior to others then I would instantly show them the door. Indeed, we have done so more than once with clients who have displayed an "attitude problem".
Role of a book-keeper
I decided to place the post because it seems that many of the accountant participators on this site have a very disparaging view of bookkeepers, and I wanted to make the point that bookkeepers play an important part in accounting....
Posted by Ian Bookman on Fri, 12/03/2010 - 22:41
Then maybe you should have led with this approach, rather than launching into accountants in general. Attack is rarely the best means of persuasion. Personally I think a good book-keeper is worth their weight in gold. The same goes for that other undervalued individual, the admin/PA. A good admin frees "fee earners" to do the things that earn fees (and often raises those fees and chases payment, turning the accounts work into cash). A bad admin can cripple a firm.
But your follow-up that a book-keeper should be "concerned to ensure the accountants they work with are competent and capable of dealing with clients' affairs in a conscientious and timely manner." just comes off as arrogant. No-one sets out to deliberately work with incompetents but the way you phrase this implies that you feel you have some special right to judge the competence of others. Coupled with your opening post you also seem to be making this judgement based solely on how they deal with your application for work. Do you think scheduling meetings with anyone who comes along is likely to lead to someone dealing with their client's affairs in a conscientious and timely manner? Just the opposite I would have thought.
If you want people to give you time then you need to give them a good reason to do so. A good starting point would be what you used to do in the finance industry and why you have changed careers. The first gives an indication of skills acquired relevant to the job. If you were a shares trader you're unlkely to have any book-keeping knowledge as a result. The second would give an indication of your dedication to your new role. if you changed careers becaause you were bored with your old job then there's no guarantee you won't get bored of this one (leaving anyone taking you on as a book-keeper in a bad position when you move on again)
Would you care to share this information with us?
It does not matter...........
..........whether somone is qualified or unqualified, accountant or book-keeper, etc etc, as long as they are good at their job and provide a good service to their clients.
Indeed, one of the best auditors I ever knew was totally unqualified (except by experience) but could smell anything wrong from 20 paces.
However, and from my experience, what I will avoid like the plague is someone with a serious "attitude problem" and who thinks the world owes them a living. That path leads only one way and that is to dissatified clients and recourse to one's PII policy.
Attitude is vital
However, and from my experience, what I will avoid like the plague is someone with a serious "attitude problem" and who thinks the world owes them a living. That path leads only one way and that is to dissatified clients and recourse to one's PII plicy.
Posted by nigelburge on Sat, 13/03/2010 - 12:45
Exactly. As I've said before half our staff are QBE's and we do not differentiate at all, not even in salary levels, bonuses etc. I know for a fact that we have QBE's earning a lot more than qualified partners in other practices in the area. Ok it reduces profits, but it also means we have virtually zero staff turnover.
"Attitude" is vital in a practice. Anyone with a bad attitude can affect an entire office and sour working relationships, and it is surprising how quickly client's pick up on a bad atmosphere. That is why we are careful if we do need new staff - they must be the kind of person who will "fit in". Their personality and attitude is just as important as their technical ability - and, yes, I have in the past turned down the most qualified applicant in favour of someone less qualified but with a better attitude.
Cliches
Nobody has said you are only a bookkeeper. People have said you’ve little bookkeeping experience – which is true.
“After all experience isn't everything” – nothing is everything.
Accountants have not derided bookkeepers. We simply think that you haven’t convinced anybody that you are a person that they want to work with – whether it is your attitude or lack of experience.
I would recommend that you try to reduce the clichés. When they are jumbled together they obscure any logic hidden away.
If you are trying to find work as a bookkeeper please explain what you are doing. Do you send a letter with a CV? Do you have a website?
Send your CV
Why dont you send your CV?
Is it because you don't think they will be impressed?
Accountants are busy and they get plenty of timewasting applications. This is why we don't agree to meet people from a phone call.
By the way, I didn't think you were using AccountingWeb to look for a job!
Sell yourself................
You could be the worlds best book keeper, or the worlds worst, I have no idea. More to the point, any accountant you approach won't know either and CV's never tell the whole story. In fact we as a practice virtually ignore them. We rarely set new staff on as our staff don't tend to leave (some have been with me for 30 years) but when we do I can tell you that 10% of my decision is based on someone's technical knowledge (providing they are not actually thick we can train them), and 90% is based on their personality - whether they will "fit in", whether they are looking for a long term career, in fact whether they will fit in as part of our little "family", and thats what we have - a sort of extended family.
Now I know my method might not sound very scientific and doesnt fit in with all the fancy theories - but the fact that it works and staff dont leave, earn more than they could in any other practice around here. enjoy a good work-life balance, get plenty of perks, and we still turn a very healthy profit, tells me Im doing somthing right.
The point I'm getting to is that its no good selling your ability if you don't sell YOU as a person too.
“After all experience isn't everything”
Yep - you are quite right there, but.................. it doesn't half count for an awful lot. Especially when it is backed up by the good past experiences of others who have worked with you. As you quite rightly say, anyone with a bit of brain can do book-keeping - it is taught in schools now - but what really sets a good book-keeper apart is knowledge of how that book-keeping is to be applied in practice, and that is usually gained by experience in the field.
May I also make a suggestion and I am really not "having a go" at you. When you write anything, do please break it up with paragraphs, Nothing puts me off more than a gert great block of text, no matter how good the content.
Work is a big part of your life - so it should be enjoyable, not
Thank you C_D for your comments. I agree you must be doing something right and it sounds as if you have created a lovely working environment within your practice.
Posted by Ian Bookman on Wed, 17/03/2010 - 07:40
It's not hard when the offices are surrounded on 3 sides by fields, and on the 4th side by my home. So we have no problems with neighbours.
But "attitude" is the key. I operate on the principal that whether someone is a Lord or a pauper - they are primarily a person and entitled to be treated as such - as an equal. I dont believe there is anyone superior to me, nor inferior to me. People are simply "different".
Many years ago when I was a teenager (just before the dinosaurs became extinct) a friend of mine had a brother who was severely autistic. We had never heard of autism, to us he was just "strange". Now other lads used to make fun of him - you can imagine the kind of things 12-14 year olds say. One day I went to my friends house and in the conservatory sat his brother with a pen knife and a lump of wood. All around him were the most amazing carvings of animals and birds I have ever seen in my life. Accurate to every feather, they were incredible. That taught me that everyone has a talent, it's just a matter of finding it. Give him a picture of an animal, and he would carve it.
I saved my pocket money and I was the first person to actually buy one of his carvings (an eagle in flight which still has pride of place in my moms house). He went on to become quite famous and his work sold for thousands so it was a good investment too :)
That taught me a lot. I now have a collegue who, before taking up accountancy, served 15 years for armed robbery, and a female employee who had, shall we say, a very colourful past. And these are now two very trusted employees and, I'm proud to say, personal friends. I gave both of them a "chance" based on my dealings with them in court and on my "gut instinct" and I have never regretted it for one second.
Another golden rule which I have always adhered to is that all suppliers are paid, in full, within 7 days, and that smaller suppliers (local shops, tradesmen etc. are paid immediately COD). We want to be paid so we should set an example by doing the same, and because they know they will be paid, immediately, and without arguement, we do get preferential treatment from local tradesmen whenever we need them.
So yes, ability and knowledge are, of course, vital. BUT, attitude and treating others, workers, suppliers, clients, with respect is equally vital. I expect, indeed insist, that when a client walks in they are treated with total respect no matter who they are or why they are there. Whether they are managing director of a plc come to discuss his latest expansion plans, or someone accused of rape wishing to discuss their defence, makes no diference. They are clients, and, above that, they are people entitled to be treated as equals.
Do you really know what you're lookng for?
Most "good" accountants will already have their own in house book keeping staff.
By "pro active" do you mean someone who knows what they are doing and does it calmly and efficiently without lots of drama, or are you looking for someone who runs around like a cat with its tail on fire - all action and no substance?
Perhaps the old saying - never judge a book by its cover - would be good advice for you.