Please advise whether worth fighting HMRC

Please advise whether worth fighting HMRC

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Back in December 2005 I informed the HMRC in writing and by phone that a friend/client who I am the agent for was emigrating on 28/2/06. They sent a SA form, CGT and P85. All were completed and submitted well before he went.

Howvever, this co oincided with teh ofice saying they had a 3 month backlog of unopened post. His records were not updated until June. HMRC paid him £200 in compensation which he paid me for the extra work caused by HMRC.Client was in a partnership, which has carried on with the remaining partner being a sole trader. His income from th partnershp was entered onto his SA return.

The partners have now received a £100 fine each for not sending in partnershp return. One has never been recieved. HMRC are saying they sent it to partener's old adress AFTER he has left the country and AFTER he had informed them so,. They are saying he should have relaised he hadnt had one and requested one from Australia.

I have appealed and lost.

The letter from them is the most riddiculous I have ever read in 22 years in this industry.

I have never gone to a commissioner's appeal. Do others advise it or will a victory for me be followed by investigations into lots of my clients by HMRC!!

I have no idea where the emigrated client now is. I am tempted to pay the fines myself as an act of martyrdom.

Any thoughts?
Miss Angry

Replies (12)

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By User deleted
04th Apr 2007 13:22

I am just fed up
I think I am having a bad day, but on days like this I feel like giving up. If someone tells the HMRC their new address then 2 months later the HMRC knowingly send a return to the wrong address I cannot believe that they will not in any way admit repsonsibility for the return not being sent in.

I know they will say the client shoud have requested the return but no reminders were sent (I know this as I changed his tax address to mine in June 2006 and as the client has emigrated afer completing all forms that HMRC asked him to complete, I am sure it was not at the fore front of his mind.

I have recently had a batch of clients disappear from my online list. The HMRC are telling me I have to resubmit agent authorisations for all if them again. As this is their eror, wouldnt it be nice if they could pay me £100 a time in a penalty for non compliance. But instead I must work for free, re doing work I have already done.

Someone cheer me up!!!!

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By AnonymousUser
04th Apr 2007 14:49

I'm sorry but I can offer no comfort, only blood, tears, toil an
We accountants do more and more of the work that used to be done by HMRC but they receive fat salaries and enjoy excellent occupational pension arrangements etc whereas we have to do it for no reward. On the contrary, we face ever increasing penalties when we make mistakes.
I have succeeded on a few occasions in getting them to pay for their mistakes but it is such a palaver that one is reluctant to do so for small amounts, and this is how they win.
What the next chancellor of the exchequer should do is to draw up a list of fixed penalties that HMRC have to pay to their "customers" when they [***] up. I'm not expecting such a fair provision to be made, however.

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By User deleted
04th Apr 2007 19:28

Fighting them won't have comeback
Fighting a decision made on a penalty by an admin assistant in a processing office that you think it wrong will not leads to lots of investigations.

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By User deleted
05th Apr 2007 10:27

Let them chase!
Your friend/client has been out of this country for over a year and presumably his emigration is permanent?

So just how exactly are they intending to collect.these penalties from him?

I wouldn't bother if I were you. Send the post back marked "gone away" and leave them to it. Eventually the penny will drop....... however if you continue to respond they will continue to push you........

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By thehaggis
08th Apr 2007 02:44

What surprises me most is...
... after 22 years in the business,
a) you did not know that a partnership has to submit a partnership return
b) you think that HMRC will pick on you if you maintain an appeal,
c) you have never been to Commissioners,

You say that you lost the appeal, but It is for the Commissioners to decide if you have ground for appeal and if those grounds are valid. HMRC can only give their opinion.

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By User deleted
09th Apr 2007 11:56

Thanks-just what I needed
Many thanks to all who offered advice to my typo infested appeal. I wrote it when extremely stressed and emotional.

I think what got me most was that yes, myself or the partner could have requested a partnership form when one didnt arrive but in reality he had emigrated and had been told by HMRC all tis tax affairs were complete and I am trying to manage a massive workload and work 7 days a week ,coping with things that are submitted, without remembering things which have not arrived. However, I would add that the HMRC have cocked this whole saga up from start to finish (at their own previous admission) and I fail to see how they can say this was in no way their fault when the fact they had 3 months of unopened post meant they sent something to someone who had left the country and had already told them so.

I view this as a 6 of one and half a dozen of the other problem, but HMRC want to accept no blame and to fine two people £100. The information on the return was submitted on their personal returns and the tax paid, so there was no outstanding unkmown amounts due. It just seems petty beyond belief to me, perhaps I am in the wrong job.

Talking of which, thanks Haggis. Your retort was just what I needed when having one of the worst week's of my life.

Of course I know partnerships submit returns, I have done umpteen.

As for your other comment, out of my 22 years of work, the first section was working in practice at a junior level and I didn't attend any hearings. I then spent a long time in industry, before setting up on my own 3 years ago. In that latter period I have not had any hearings. The point I made was that it was one of the most riddiulous letters I had received in any work situation.

If you are experienced with hearings I would be grateful of some constructive advice as to whether it is worth pursuing. I am not in a very good frame of mind at present and would rather you don't reply if it will be a sarcastic comment.

Once again, thanks to everyone. Working on your own can be a depressing place at times. It is nice to know there are people out there happy to suuport others.

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By User deleted
04th Apr 2007 12:23

More Info
Had you sent in a separate Partnership Tax Return in previous years? Were you aware that a third Return for the partnersrhip was necessary?

It is my opinion that the initial checks made by the Revenue ought to reject the individuals SA where there is a partnership supplement and a Partnership Tax Return has not been filed. Of course, it's not really worth the Revenue's while doing so when they can collect double the ordinary penalties.

A penalty system where 1 late Return can attract 2 penalties seems to me, a very odd way of going about things; especially as tax is not paid late on them.

Do the Commissioners have anything to say on this odd penalty system for Partnership Tax Returns?

I know this isn't very consoling, but from what you say, it is not worth fighting, but perhaps you can write to the Special Commissioners.

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By User deleted
10th Apr 2007 08:06

Electronic Filing
Have you tried electronic filing; particularly with 3rd party software?

I'm sure you'd feel better if you could think this was unlikely to happen again. With the software I use, (Drummohr), a report is produced showing the filing cycle from creation of tax returns to the date of acceptance receipt on submission.

Any returns not sent toward the end of the filing window are therefore highlighted.

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By AnonymousUser
10th Apr 2007 12:08

Commisioners
I am 22 years in the trade this August and I haven't been to commissioners either ... not once and not even close to be honest. Never realised I would get a badge if I did go!


Miss Angry ... your workload is too big, get some help.

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By User deleted
10th Apr 2007 13:08

would love help!
Hi, I have tried getting help. I have 3 people who work for me but that is on a specific job by job basis, not as general assistance.

I have put several ads in the local press aimed at a person wishing to start in acountancy and train in AAT then a CCAB but all I ever get are mothers who want to work certain days/times of the week mainly from home.

I think I will advertise again in a few months when the next group of school leavers is available. I am also a business volunteer in the local school so may sound some people out then.

How do other people find recruitment? I am not keen on agencies.

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By AnonymousUser
10th Apr 2007 15:38

Surely even accountants
have babies!? I think you are missing a trick if you dismiss this growing workforce sector in preference to a school leaver. Lots of talented women are making the decision that they just don't want to return to full time work ... IF I was recruiting its where I would look first.

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By frauke
10th Apr 2007 16:59

Going to the commissioner's
Although I have had a few cases that have gone to the commissioners over the years, in the last 10 years I have sent clients on their own as I have found my attendance was never actully required as the commissioners prefer to hear from clients directly. Every case the client found easy, and was successful, as it was purely down to an inexperienced Tax Inspector or "faceless" person at the HMRC who turned down the appeals. That should give you an idea that you have nothing to worry about.

The main reason for appealling to the commissioners - is when the case requires common sense to be applied and I have found the commissioners are very easy to deal with. If its more complicated I would attend myself, but to date - I have not been put into this position.

The HMRC records are not good enough to pick on any particular accountant for any reason - they tend to go for "easy marks" - sole traders or individuals that receive regular tax rebates, or deal in large amounts of cash! Since I have switched more of my clients over to Ltd companies, I have had very few investigations - in fact none for the last few years.


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