AE Who's responsibility

AE Who's responsibility

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I am a member in practice with a small number of clients but I also have a part time job as a bookkeeper for a small company. Auto enrolment is looming for this company and my employer assumes that I will deal will all aspects of it because I do the payroll. Now , as I am only paid as a bookkeeper at this firm I feel a little resentful that I am being asked to do something that is not covered in my original employment contract. I have attended numerous CPD events for auto enrolement and webinars all paid for by myself . I attended these courses for the benefit of my clients but feel this company is piggy backing from my knowledge. Indeed they don't pay for any of the courses I attend . To be honest I would like to leave but this is not an option at the moment until I have a steady income from my own company.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Replies (19)

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By johngroganjga
19th May 2014 16:10

Just tell the client that if he wants you to hand-hold during the process of selecting and implementing a compliant scheme your fee for doing so will be £X. Also make it clear to the client, if it isn't already, that the hand-holding is all you can lawfully do as your are not authorised to provide advice in relation to pensions.

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RLI
By lionofludesch
19th May 2014 16:16

Client's responsibility

It's definitely the client's responsibility.  If that involves you in extra duties, then there should be extra pay.  I don't think that's unfair on either party.

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By Roland195
19th May 2014 16:32

Not a client

In this case, we a talking about an employer, not a client. I suspect there are a lot of in-house accountants, book-keepers, Payroll administrators etc in your position just now, with it coming down to a matter of negotiation between yourself & your employer.

Unfortunately, the wind does seem to be blowing towards lumping AE administration requirements alongside the payroll.

 

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Replying to atleastisoundknowledgable...:
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By User deleted
19th May 2014 17:06

CPD

I don't see it as a matter of negotiation.

Unless the contract specifically requires ongoing CPD, paid for privately - until the costs of the courses are reimbursed as expenses the employee has no requirement to fulfil duties over and above their contractual obligations and, as such, only has to offer up the skills that were 'on hand' (plus reasonable CPD) in line with the job role at the point of employment. Where additional skills are required by the employer, short of hiring an additional member of staff to deal with them, they have to show willing and pay up.

 

What would you say if they had stated

"Unless you go to this course and pay for it yourself, you will be sacked"

or

"Your job role is no longer going to be available as the skills we require are higher than the level that you are considered to be at. Therefore, unless you fund the relevant courses you will be made redundant in the near future"

Both of the above are grounds for a relatively solid tribunal case.

 

In my opinion, if the employer needs you to have these skills - they have to amend their/your contract and they also have to fund them.

The only matter for negotiation is the amount the employer owes - whether that is reimbursement of your outlay (or say 60% of it where you work 3 days per week etc.) or a second course that you attend. 

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Replying to atleastisoundknowledgable...:
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By J_G_W
19th May 2014 17:30

Exactly

Roland195 wrote:

In this case, we a talking about an employer, not a client. I suspect there are a lot of in-house accountants, book-keepers, Payroll administrators etc in your position just now, with it coming down to a matter of negotiation between yourself & your employer.

Unfortunately, the wind does seem to be blowing towards lumping AE administration requirements alongside the payroll.

 

 

Exactly, the employer can delegate to whoever they want, however ultimately the responsibility is with the employer to meet their obligations.

You need to highlight the issues with automatic enrolment. Detail the need for a qualifying scheme, software to assess, communications to be provided, compliance to be adhered to, certification to be completed, registration with The Pensions Regulator, contribution basis agreed (this can cross into employment law with potential 90 day consultation period if the employees contract of employment differs from the basis they want to enrol them on.

All you can do is highlight the pitfalls, highlight the potential fines and suggest they seek financial advice to set up a qualifying scheme and have a default find recommended.

All the best.

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RLI
By lionofludesch
19th May 2014 16:44

OK - employer then.  The Boss.  Gaffer. Board of Directors.  Head honcho.  Whatever the main man's called in your organisation.

Definitely not the bookkeeper or any other employee for that matter

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Replying to andy.partridge:
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By Roland195
19th May 2014 16:54

Delegation

lionofludesch wrote:

OK - employer then.  The Boss.  Gaffer. Board of Directors.  Head honcho.  Whatever the main man's called in your organisation.

Definitely not the bookkeeper or any other employee for that matter

Yes, who delegate the day to day responsibility to the book-keeper just as they have done with the accounting requirement. It is not a legal responsibility so much so as your mutually agreed contractual obligations.

Realistically, the extra work required may provide an opportunity to increase either your hours or your rate, you will likely have to vote with your feet. From what I have seen, many of the smaller employers who have even thought about AE are expecting their existing payroll staff to assume the administrative tasks associated with AE into their regular duties.

 

 

 

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Replying to richards1:
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By lionofludesch
19th May 2014 17:24

Delegation ?

Roland195 wrote:

lionofludesch wrote:

OK - employer then.  The Boss.  Gaffer. Board of Directors.  Head honcho.  Whatever the main man's called in your organisation.

Definitely not the bookkeeper or any other employee for that matter

Yes, who delegate the day to day responsibility to the book-keeper just as they have done with the accounting requirement. It is not a legal responsibility so much so as your mutually agreed contractual obligations.

Realistically, the extra work required may provide an opportunity to increase either your hours or your rate, you will likely have to vote with your feet. From what I have seen, many of the smaller employers who have even thought about AE are expecting their existing payroll staff to assume the administrative tasks associated with AE into their regular duties.

Delegation isn't abrogation.

It's good to delegate - nobody can do everything - but it's still the boss's job to see that it's done.

A good question to ask is "Yes, I'll do this for you.  Who's going to do what I normally do in the meantime ?"  I said this to my boss once (a lot of years ago, when I had one).  She got the point.

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By Richard Willis
19th May 2014 16:52

What does your contract with your employer say?

I would have thought that AE is an HR role rather than payroll.  Unless there is some catch-all in your contract that would make it difficult to argue I would say that this is outside your remit but that you are willing to do it as a consultant for £#.

Ed. Or a pay rise of £#

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RLI
By lionofludesch
19th May 2014 18:08

What's reasonable

The original question was "Who's responsible?"  not "Who's going to do the work?

I don't think the bookkeeper should be choosing the scheme.  That's madness.

On the other hand, I don't see that they should complain about dealing with the routine accounting.

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Replying to Robbo:
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By Georgie
20th May 2014 06:26

AE who's responsibility
There is no HR department at this company, there are only 35 employees... Thanks for the feed back on this and as mentioned in an earlier reply I don't think I will be the only one with this problem. And yes I think my employer is expecting to be spoon fed AE by me, even recommending which pension provider they use. They will assume that I will do all the research before hand and then just set it up for them!

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By lionofludesch
20th May 2014 18:51

Big Job

Georgie wrote:
There is no HR department at this company, there are only 35 employees... Thanks for the feed back on this and as mentioned in an earlier reply I don't think I will be the only one with this problem. And yes I think my employer is expecting to be spoon fed AE by me, even recommending which pension provider they use. They will assume that I will do all the research before hand and then just set it up for them!

You need to explain what a big job it is and that you can't be making some of the decisions for them. They're management level decisions.

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By MIKE_ROHAN
04th Jun 2014 16:14

Tricky Situation

Georgie wrote:
There is no HR department at this company, there are only 35 employees... Thanks for the feed back on this and as mentioned in an earlier reply I don't think I will be the only one with this problem. And yes I think my employer is expecting to be spoon fed AE by me, even recommending which pension provider they use. They will assume that I will do all the research before hand and then just set it up for them!

 

It's an interesting debate. In a company with no HR person or dedicated resource, the closest match probably is Payroll - with support as needed. Even if there was an HR person, they'd probably argue that they werent qualified to offer Pensions advice (like you) and actually a lot of the assessment and ongoing tasks sat in Payroll.

 If the boss chooses his/her own provider then thats fine, asking someone that isnt qualified to recommend one puts them in an uncomfortable position.

How about you research AE, its challenges and present your findings to them - making an investment case to bring in an IFA or similar to project manage it for you? I know figures of £1000 for project managing AE with more on top for Pensions Advice are common and it might be a cost the boss has to swallow.

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Replying to andy.partridge:
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By Georgie
04th Jun 2014 20:04

They won't pay that...

I am researching AE, watching webinars, attending CPD events etc...all of which I fund myself, unless they are free of course and  I still need to get in my head how I am going to discuss going forward with my employer as far as AE is concerned.  My qualification has very little value to my employer, and I do think they will dismiss any discussions of an increase in salary  although they will expect me to implement/manage AE for them. Quite shocking really...

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By ShirleyM
20th May 2014 08:41

A bookkeeping hazard

We did quite a lot of bookkeeping when I first started my practice. Clients treated me as a convenient accountant and asked for advice that should have been directed to their appointed accountant.

Personally, I would inform them to refer the matter to their accountant. You know your employer better than anyone here, so use the approach that is most likely to be successful for you, ie. ask for increased pay, or for them to pay the cost of training, or say you will follow their accountants instructions ... or tell them it isn't part of your job.

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By Moonbeam
20th May 2014 09:34

Training is the key

I agree that small employers will expect people in your position to take on massive responsibilities for AE. If you negotiate things properly it could be a good opportunity to get some really good experience that you can use for private work/ future jobs.

Although you are feeling angry at being "used", it might be the case that your boss is too focussed elsewhere to really understand what he is asking of you (in most small companies that is the case). If you prepare a proper case, costing out the items I've suggested below and have a meeting with him where there are no interruptions, he may thank you for your professionalism. If you are good at what you do, he should respect your opinions if they are given in a friendly manner. (Of course if he's a really unreasonable tyrant then you will just have to leave).

There will be lots of extra time required setting up the scheme, liaising with employees and adapting your payroll data to enable it to be accepted by whatever pension scheme the company goes with.

On a monthly basis after that I think at least an extra two days a month will be required given the 35 employees.

If you are working flat out now, you need to agree more time with your boss, and if you don't want to work more hours but want to keep your job, you will have to take on a trainee to do some of your more menial work. Assuming one or other options is agreed by your boss you would want to negotiate a higher salary for the increased responsibility. You will need him to pay for training days in addition.

If he isn't reasonable then obviously you will need to look for a another job, but bear in mind that similar ones will have the same issues.

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By MIKE_ROHAN
05th Jun 2014 10:30

There's lots of good information out there to inform about AE. You and other people in your situation should be able to get a good grasp of the legislation by researching online and attending seminars etc, but I still think you're on a sticky wicket when it comes to recommending a pension scheme.

It's easy enough to recommend a compliance tool - be it middleware or a bolt on to payroll - but recommending a scheme is a different kettle of fish!

If they wont pay for advice I'd be inclined to say "this is the information I have put together, these are the relative providers and the pros and cons of each - over to you"

I will send you a PM with links to some useful resources.

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By MIKE_ROHAN
05th Jun 2014 11:02

I sent these on a PM to Georgie earlier but it makes sense to put them on here as the content is potentially useful to all

We have produced some guides to AE that will hopefully be useful for you (and others). If you know your AE and you've done some research/attended seminars already you might find some of them a bit basic.

Links and Guides down the left hand side of the page - http://www.sage.co.uk/business-resources/pension-auto-enrolment/index.html
A generic AE guide that could be useful for clients - so they know just what AE involves & what you're going to have to do for them - http://www.sage.co.uk/business-resources/pension-auto-enrolment/auto-enr...
links midway down the page, - "resources for you" & "resources for your clients" - http://www.sage.co.uk/business-resources/pension-auto-enrolment/prepare-...

If you have any questions or need anything please ask.

Many Thanks

Mike 

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By Georgie
31st Oct 2014 21:35

AE who's responsibility?
So, An update: I was told last week that Auto Enrolement WAS my responsibility because I do the payroll... They have not paid for any of the courses I have been to. Nor paid for any of my training.....Does anyone know where I stand with this legally?

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