Change of name

Change of name

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Have had a client with an English name who has changed to a muslim name. Does anyone think this is a concern and who if anyone should I notify. Is it something that the NCA should be notified of?

Replies (59)

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By cheekychappy
19th Nov 2015 14:16

Yes contact the NCA. He's obviously intending to flee to Syria.

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paddle steamer
By DJKL
19th Nov 2015 14:30

The same as you would do if he previously had a muslim name (if there is such a broad thing) and changed it to an english name. (if there is such a broad thing)

So, HMRC and possibly change of name re directors etc at Companies house, if applicable.

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Replying to I'msorryIhaven'taclue:
Red Leader
By Red Leader
19th Nov 2015 14:40

@OP

Do you mean an Arabic name?

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By JamesAnd
19th Nov 2015 14:40

Thanks DJKL - I didn't mean in terms of Co Hse etc.

It's more are these things that the NCA need to know about.

He may have changed his name as a result of an entirely innocent conversion to Islam but even so, is this something that accountants now have a duty to report to the NCA, outside of the normal Money Laundering reporting responsibilities.

 

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Replying to frankfx:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
19th Nov 2015 14:50

Are you serious?

JamesAnd wrote:

Thanks DJKL - I didn't mean in terms of Co Hse etc.

It's more are these things that the NCA need to know about.

He may have changed his name as a result of an entirely innocent conversion to Islam but even so, is this something that accountants now have a duty to report to the NCA, outside of the normal Money Laundering reporting responsibilities.

 

Are you serious?

Think about the political implications of what you are suggesting here. 

 

 

 

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Portia profile image
By Portia Nina Levin
19th Nov 2015 14:41

Has he taken to referring to you as an infidel? If not, I would not worry too much.

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By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
19th Nov 2015 14:59

.

When the IRA were busy bombing the UK, did we go around assuming all Catholics were terrorists?

It is quite common for people who are into carrying a prayer mat around to change their name. 

Take Cat Stevens for example. or Yusaf Islam as he is now known. Not a terrorist. 

Nor are most of the billion+ other muslims in the world. 

 

 

 

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Replying to Paul Crowley:
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By JamesAnd
19th Nov 2015 15:13

Thanks and hopefully I have addressed your points in my answer to DJKL in that I accept it could be an entirely innocent conversion. And I can assure you that I am not trying to jump on any anti muslim bandwagon. It's purely a question on what accountants are expected to report.

And I don't think the comparison to then and now is totally valid.

And trust me I know -  given the experiences of my father who was an Irish Catholic and also a member of the british armed forces. At times he was given grief by both sides of the Irish Sea.

 

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By JamesAnd
19th Nov 2015 15:03

Thanks Red Leader - probably!

Thanks Portia - I haven't yet told him I am a Catholic which might make him issue a FATWA or something!

DJKL - I would love you to tell me of the political implications. In the end it might seem like a daft question that I have raised but in the end it is also possibly a valid question, as to what the government expects us to report, given the paranoid times we live in. What if he has actually been groomed and about to join IS?

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Replying to lionofludesch:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
19th Nov 2015 15:26

If you have a suspicion

JamesAnd wrote:

Thanks Red Leader - probably!

Thanks Portia - I haven't yet told him I am a Catholic which might make him issue a FATWA or something!

DJKL - I would love you to tell me of the political implications. In the end it might seem like a daft question that I have raised but in the end it is also possibly a valid question, as to what the government expects us to report, given the paranoid times we live in. What if he has actually been groomed and about to join IS?

If you have a particular suspicion report it, of course, follow the rules and guidance as laid down.

Insofar as I am aware there is no deemed / automatic heightening of suspicion/reporting requirement merely upon name change ,or a list of proscribed names that needs reviewed against triggering such a report; if there were such a law I suspect I would give up practice as I hope would most people; the next step, when societies have tended to differentiate on such a basis, has often been a lot of people wearing different armbands.

 

 

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By cheekychappy
19th Nov 2015 15:03

Ignore the naysayers. Make the report. We are all at risk.

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By bernard michael
19th Nov 2015 15:03

A client of mine changed his name by Deed Poll and gave me a copy of the document. HMRC couldn't/wouldn't understand and tried to give him a new UTR. It took many letters and phone calls to get the matter resolved.

By what method is your client changing his name??

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Portia profile image
By Portia Nina Levin
19th Nov 2015 15:05

Just give Anonymous the details of his Twitter account, and they will do the rest.

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By mwngiol
19th Nov 2015 15:06

Very concerning

I don't know why the other posters don't see this as a concern. If I was you I'd contact the client ASAP, apologise on behalf of the West for everything ever, and go into hiding with all your family and friends.

But first email all your normally-named clients and get them to get in touch with me to take over their affairs.

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By rorydowney
19th Nov 2015 15:08

Beard

There is a man in my work has not shaved for a few days, I think he may be becoming a Muslim terrorist, what should I do?

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By cheekychappy
19th Nov 2015 15:08

I’d love to listen in on your client meetings … “on a scale of 1 to 10, how Muslim would say you were”?

If you haven’t realised, I think the general consensus is that your post is pretty ridiculous.

@Mwngiol – Muslim names are normal names. What makes you think they aren’t?

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By blenk
19th Nov 2015 15:09

I wonder....

I wonder if Cat Steven's accountant had the same concerns

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Portia profile image
By Portia Nina Levin
19th Nov 2015 15:10

I had a client with a suspicious looking beard. I reported him!

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Replying to elliottchandler:
By cheekychappy
19th Nov 2015 15:21

Not

JamesAnd wrote:

Accountants sense of humour - you can't beat it - nights out with you lot must be [***] hilarious!!

 

 

 

as interesting as your nights out dressed in your all white robes.

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By JamesAnd
19th Nov 2015 15:27

Ha Ha Ha - what a  hilarious

Ha Ha Ha - what a  hilarious comeback - got me there.

Actually no - I think that you have just confirmed my earlier remark

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By mwngiol
19th Nov 2015 15:33

Dilemma

There was a Pakistan cricketer who changed his name from Youssuf Youhana to Mohammad Youssuf. What would you do if he was your client? Do both names sound Muslim? Does one sound more Muslim than the other? Has he become more Muslim or less Muslim? Has he become more risky or less risky? If he then changed his name to Nigel, should you tell the authorities that he's now safe and there's no need to monitor his communications?

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By Tim Vane
19th Nov 2015 15:37

It's not time to make a change, just relax, take it easy, you're still young, that's your fault, there's so much you have to know. Find a girl, settle down, if you want you can marry. Look at me, I am old, but I'm happy. I was once like you are now, and I know that it's not easy to be calm when you've found something going on. But take your time, think a lot, think of everything you've got, for you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.

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By JamesAnd
19th Nov 2015 15:44

Dilemma

That's not the point of my question and you know it.

It is not for us to decide if somebody is guilty or not but the authorities now require us to report certain issues to them in case it can then link the issue to other more serious matters.

Given the number of people who have been groomed and then gone abroad to fight for IS all I am asking is this an issue that the authorities may require us to report. It is not as daft a question as some (hilariously) make out and even if nothing is required to be reported it wouldn't surprise me if it won't be long before we are - simply because of the paranoia within government.

I will repeat for the last time I have not asked this question because I am anti muslim or bigoted in any other way.

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Replying to Jason Croke:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
19th Nov 2015 15:50

Logic lacking

JamesAnd wrote:

That's not the point of my question and you know it.

It is not for us to decide if somebody is guilty or not but the authorities now require us to report certain issues to them in case it can then link the issue to other more serious matters.

Given the number of people who have been groomed and then gone abroad to fight for IS all I am asking is this an issue that the authorities may require us to report. It is not as daft a question as some (hilariously) make out and even if nothing is required to be reported it wouldn't surprise me if it won't be long before we are - simply because of the paranoia within government.

I will repeat for the last time I have not asked this question because I am anti muslim or bigoted in any other way.

 On the 12th of August a fair number of people I know use guns, ought I report them? The connective logic as to why I ought to report them to someone is as good as your logic, mine however is not quite so unpalatable.

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By mwngiol
19th Nov 2015 15:49

Reporting

The facts as you know them are:

1.  A client has changed their name to what you consider to be a 'Muslim' name.

2. That's it.

Hence the confusion as to what and why you consider there is to be reported.

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Replying to leshoward:
Red Leader
By Red Leader
19th Nov 2015 15:56

report all M's?

If you report this convert, then surely you must report all Muslims you encounter in carrying on your profession.

Or is there something that innately links a convert to terrorrism that does not link one born into the faith?

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Replying to SteveHa:
By cheekychappy
19th Nov 2015 15:59

Like

Red Leader wrote:

If you report this convert, then surely you must report all Muslims you encounter in carrying on your profession.

Or is there something that innately links a convert to terrorrism that does not link one born into the faith?


 

A muggle?

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Replying to SteveHa:
By jon_griffey
19th Nov 2015 16:47

Already flagged?

Red Leader wrote:

If you report this convert, then surely you must report all Muslims you encounter in carrying on your profession.

Or is there something that innately links a convert to terrorrism that does not link one born into the faith?

I would wager that anyone who changes to a Muslim name or converts to Islam already gets flagged.

 

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Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
19th Nov 2015 15:53

@James

I don't think you deserve to be shot down in flames for what you feel is a question.

Do you feel this is more than just a name change? Are you additionally suspicious of anything the guy is doing.

These are not nice times we are living in and I guess a lot of people are now attracting false suspicion.

But how many times do we hear after after something bad like has happened in France that the perpetrators were known to the authorities but were deemed not a risk or suspicions not followed up.

On a different note I had an Indian client who was an Elvis impersonator, he changed his name to Jimahl Shookup, I didn't report him as his only crimes were against music.

 

 

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Replying to Wanderer:
Portia profile image
By Portia Nina Levin
19th Nov 2015 16:05

I do not agree

Glennzy wrote:

I don't think you deserve to be shot down in flames for what you feel is a question.

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Portia profile image
By Portia Nina Levin
19th Nov 2015 15:56

Grooming
I had a self-confessed dog groomer come in wanting me to deal with his bits and bobs the other day. I soon sent him off with a flea in his ear!

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By JamesAnd
19th Nov 2015 16:03

Reporting

I can assure you that it is a muslim name.

I don't necessarily think there is something to report. But I didn't know if I should still report anyway and under the current climate if it is something that should be reported even if  in the end it proved to be nothing untoward. In the end how many Money Laundering reports lead to something substantial yet we still have to make them.

I just wanted to see if anybody had any sensible opinions on here (but not unsurprisingly not many have)

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Replying to johnjenkins:
By cheekychappy
19th Nov 2015 16:08

Sensible

JamesAnd wrote:

I can assure you that it is a muslim name.

I don't necessarily think there is something to report. But I didn't know if I should still report anyway and under the current climate if it is something that should be reported even if  in the end it proved to be nothing untoward. In the end how many Money Laundering reports lead to something substantial yet we still have to make them.

I just wanted to see if anybody had any sensible opinions on here (but not unsurprisingly not many have)

 

In this forum, sensible questions are usually met with sensible answers.

 

What does that tell you about your question?

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By mwngiol
19th Nov 2015 16:07

Sensible

The sensible opinion which I think most people have given is that you don't need to report anything because there's nothing to report and nobody to report the said nothing to.

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By JamesAnd
19th Nov 2015 16:27

@ Glennzy

Thanks for your posting.

I won't budge from the fact I have asked a perfectly legitimate question and those making the nasty comments are doing so because it is the way they always are on here and refuse to have the decency to read my posts properly and take them as they were intended, because they would not then be able to exercise their natural instincts.

They just sit with this site open all day with nothing else to do but wait to feed their appetite to troll.

 

@ DJKL. Glorious twelfth not quite an event to worry about. Especially as I partake myself. Although in order to live up to some of the ridiculous comments on here I would worry if anybody turned up who wasn't white. Luckily though, given I live in the Yorkshire Dales, we don't get many of that sort up here so the stand out like sore thumb.

 

 

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Replying to cfield:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
19th Nov 2015 16:32

I now understand

JamesAnd wrote:

Thanks for your posting.

I won't budge from the fact I have asked a perfectly legitimate question and those making the nasty comments are doing so because it is the way they always are on here and refuse to have the decency to read my posts properly and take them as they were intended, because they would not then be able to exercise their natural instincts.

They just sit with this site open all day with nothing else to do but wait to feed their appetite to troll.

 

@ DJKL. Glorious twelfth not quite an event to worry about. Especially as I partake myself. Although in order to live up to some of the ridiculous comments on here I would worry if anybody turned up who wasn't white. Luckily though, given I live in the Yorkshire Dales, we don't get many of that sort up here so the stand out like sore thumb.

 

 

I now understand, I have fallen through a wormhole and am in a universe where we have the internet but it is the 1970s.

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Replying to cfield:
RLI
By lionofludesch
19th Nov 2015 18:05

Nothing

DJKL wrote:

I now understand, I have fallen through a wormhole and am in a universe where we have the internet but it is the 1970s.

Ach - that's nothing.  It's been 1690 in parts of Northern Ireland for over 300 years.

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By cheekychappy
19th Nov 2015 16:31

Better than been a clan member.

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Portia profile image
By Portia Nina Levin
19th Nov 2015 16:36

Is there an inverse Godwin's Law?

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By Anne Robinson
19th Nov 2015 16:51

Take the following stance
What would you do if he changed his name to Declan O'Murphy - possible IRA
What would you do if he changed his name to Adolf Hitler - possible right wing extremist
What would you do if he changed his name to Tony Blair - possible fraud

And do the same - the fact that his name is possibly "Muslim sounding" should make no difference it is what you perceive the change of name to be hiding that is all you need to worry about.

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By mrme89
19th Nov 2015 16:56

I think Tony Blair has committed more war crimes than ISIS.

 

Do we now need to flag up people called Tony?

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By JamesAnd
19th Nov 2015 16:58

Agreed Jon which is one of the reasons why I wondered if that would absolve accountants of any responsibility for telling the authorities if a client has changes to a muslim name.

For money laundering if a bank suspects one of my clients of money laundering it will presumably file a report. That presumably doesn't absolve me from doing so if I also suspect something.

As I have said, changing to a name to a muslim name does not necessarily (and on most occasions) mean something untoward all I wanted to know is if we are still expected to report it to someone. Don't know why that is such a contensious question.

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Replying to alialdabawi:
By jon_griffey
19th Nov 2015 17:22

No responsibility

JamesAnd wrote:

As I have said, changing to a name to a muslim name does not necessarily (and on most occasions) mean something untoward all I wanted to know is if we are still expected to report it to someone. Don't know why that is such a contensious question.

 

I can't see that you have any responsibilities whatsoever for telling the authorities about someone lawfully changing their name and it would not be proper to do so without some other reasonable suspicion. As I suggested, given the times we live in, when they change their passport, driving licence, tax records etc I would be highly surprised if it wasn't flagged up anyway.

It takes someone of serious religious conviction to genuinely and sincerely want to convert to a life of joyless subjugation so you have to wonder what the motives are of some converts.

 

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Portia profile image
By Portia Nina Levin
19th Nov 2015 17:00

I have just seen a lady with a backpack and wearing a hijab get on a bus. She obviously had something in her hand too. Do you think I should call the police James?

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By JamesAnd
19th Nov 2015 17:02

Of course you should sounds very suspicious to me

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David Winch
By David Winch
19th Nov 2015 17:14

The legal position

Essentially in the 'needing to report' context there are three classes of people in the UK.  Class 1 is everybody.  Class 2 is everybody with a job (employment or self-employment, including an unpaid job - voluntary work).  Class 3 is everybody working in the 'regulated sector' as defined under the Money Laundering Regulations 2007 (& other reporting laws).

Obviously people in class 2 are also in class 1 & people in class 3 are also in class 1 & class 2.

People in class 1 have to report (i.e. to self report) their own involvement in money laundering (see ss 327 - 329 Proceeds of Crime Act 2002).

People in class 2 to have report suspicions that others may be engaged in a terrorist property offence where that suspicion is based on information which came to them in the course of their work.  Such offences include fund raising for terrorist purposes & handling of monies or other assets likely to be used for terrorist purposes or generated from terrorist acts such as terrorist extortion (see ss 15 - 22A Terrorism Act 2000).

People in class 3 (including accountants in practice etc) have report suspicions that others may be engaged in a money laundering offence where that suspicion is based on information which came to them in the course of their work in the 'regulated sector' (see s330 Proceeds of Crime Act 2002).

That's a bit of a simple & broad summary but hopefully you get the picture.

The OP has to consider whether he suspects, as a result of information that has come to him in the course of his work, that someone is engaged in a terrorist property offence.

However he does not have to report a suspicion that, say, someone he knows has committed a murder (even where that was a terrorist murder).  It is the monies / assets that are central to the reporting requirement.

I hope that helps.

David

P.S. People in Scotland have additional reporting responsibilities in respect of their own involvement in organised crime & in certain circumstances their suspicions of the involvement of others in organised crime.

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Portia profile image
By Portia Nina Levin
19th Nov 2015 17:10

Could a name be considered terrorist property David? A name is, surely after all, a form of intellectual property, and apparently the OP's client has a rather suspicious sounding new name.

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David Winch
By David Winch
19th Nov 2015 17:16

@PNL

That's a very interesting question & I'm glad you have asked it (as politicians like to say before failing to answer a question which they have been asked!).

David

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By cparker87
19th Nov 2015 17:27

Great thread

I can't see this staying here long but this has given me a chuckle to see everyone's thinly veiled prejudices coming through. I have them too so I'm not nay saying anyone. Product of being a scared westerner. Just glad I'm in t'north. 

Next time he's in the office have a can of Schweppes Gold on the table and see what happens. 

 

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Portia profile image
By Portia Nina Levin
19th Nov 2015 17:29

Well from the information that David has provided, it seems that James does have a reporting obligation, since in the course of his private work he has discovered that his client has come int o possession of a suspicious name, that he thinks may be used for the purposes of terrorism.

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