Is cloud accounting software all just pie in the sky

Is cloud accounting software all just pie in...

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I know the general consensus on AW that cloud accounting is bees knees but my experience is that cloud is still not at the races and the fawning over cloud products from both clients and practitioners has a bit of the emperors new clothes about it. 

Many of the products, developed by "entrepreneurs" don't have some of the basic modules nailed down e.g. reconciled bank balances don't agree to nominal ledger, no year end functionality, inability to deal with non VAT payments, the list goes on and on and the problem is that as a practitioner you have to be seen to be all over the cloud and how great it is and in many cases these products aren't suited to many businesses especially ones with high numbers of transactions and not to mention that the software is only as useful as your internet connection.

With smart phones and tablets being so ubiquitous in our daily lives clients want to have the latest technology so they can view their "finances" on a mobile device. In theory it sounds like a great idea but in reality it's just a toy that the client can use as an excuse to play with their new smartphone/tablet/mac book while they drink coffee and use free wifi in Starbucks and are only too chuffed with themselves because they could take a picture of the receipt afterwards and upload it to their cloud accounting software and then tweet about what a productive morning they just had. The whole thing is a sham! The reality is that most clients don't know how to use these products and don't understand the information that it produces, they are at a loss to enter nominal and non VAT transaction i.e. anything other than a sales invoice or a receipt/invoice so 99.9999999% of the time the accounts are wrong and I mean completely wrong! Not one client who does their own bookkeeping has ever provided me with a TB, Creditors ledger or Debtors ledger that has been correct.

As a result, I'm calling out cloud accounting software and saying it's still not the final product. Clients don't know how to use it, it's entirely dependent on an internet connection and they don't have some of the basis functionalities nailed down.

Replies (36)

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By Tim Vane
17th Apr 2015 12:15

Yes it's still a maturing market.

But it's the future. Get used to it.

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James Reeves
By James Reeves
17th Apr 2015 12:23

Internet connection

I remember when businesses started using email. There were people then that said it was silly to rely on the transience of the internet and that no sensible business would move to electronic communications.

My teenage daughters treat the internet as a basic human right. Two days ago, my thirteen year old described "home" as "the place where the wifi connects automatically".

Regardless of where we are now, we are only going one way, and that's online.

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By User deleted
17th Apr 2015 12:34

The more I use Kashflow ...

... the more I realise how good it is.

The problem with it is getting to know it, it is not the most intuitive to someone who has used desk top applications for 20+ years, or i think for a layman not pre-conditioned to things, but it is very good and I think they will sort out teh ease of in a year or two.

That said, the online help is excellent and support gets back to you quickly. Support is via e-mail, but I think that is better, as they are forewarned of teh problem so can get straight back with an answer, and at their phone cost not yours.

Cloud is not teh bees knees yet, but the progress over the last 2 or 3 years is staggering, and they will soon rival the old desktop stalwarts i believe, and teh more who sign up, the more budget they will have for this to be sooner rather than later.

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Replying to jcace:
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By BigBadWolf
20th Apr 2015 14:51

Really ... Kashflow??

Old Greying Accountant wrote:

... the more I realise how good it is.

The problem with it is getting to know it, it is not the most intuitive to someone who has used desk top applications for 20+ years, or i think for a layman not pre-conditioned to things, but it is very good and I think they will sort out teh ease of in a year or two.

That said, the online help is excellent and support gets back to you quickly. Support is via e-mail, but I think that is better, as they are forewarned of teh problem so can get straight back with an answer, and at their phone cost not yours.

Cloud is not teh bees knees yet, but the progress over the last 2 or 3 years is staggering, and they will soon rival the old desktop stalwarts i believe, and teh more who sign up, the more budget they will have for this to be sooner rather than later.

 

OGA, Of all the cloud systems I have looked at its the worst, you will be pleasantly be surprised if you try Xero or Clearbooks 

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By Maslins
17th Apr 2015 12:42

Accountants running their own practices are in the lucky situation of being able to pick and choose what software they work with.  Feel free to disregard the cloud packages.

However, every new development has teething issues when it first comes out...doesn't necessarily mean the best solution is to ignore it.

We work almost exclusively with FreeAgent and are very made we made that choice.  You can of course go with/without whatever package you like.

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By danielgricks
17th Apr 2015 12:57

IRIS iCloud?

I use IRIS accounting suite on a stand alone PC (sole practitioner) am am looking a using this hosted (in the 'cloud') for more than one user. Seems better than a networked solution.

Has anyone had any experience of this or has any thoughts?

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By egarnham
17th Apr 2015 13:04

Daniel we have used Iris hosting now for over a year, we have had no problems at all with it and we can work anywhere there is a Wifi connection, staff love it because they can work from home if they want to.

 

 

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John Hextall
By John Hextall
17th Apr 2015 13:05

Jam tomorrow

I have been working with computers and finance/payroll systems for about 30 years and, since changing to Macs about 4 years ago, now find it relatively easy and trouble-free to print stuff and (usually) connect to the internet (albeit slowly). However, the whole history of software development has been based on the idea that 'it will all get fixed in the next release' and cloud-based systems are no exception. Added to that the suspicion that the data is neither safe nor secure and the problems of getting any bandwidth out of major cities mean it will be some time before I am happy to do anything important in the cloud.

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By Tim Vane
17th Apr 2015 13:15

Bandwidth?

What has bandwidth got to do with anything? Most cloud accounting sites will have very low bandwidth, all that's going up and down is a few numbers and some (locally cached) javascript code. Probably less bandwidth than AnyAnswers.

A whole day on a cloud accounting site probably uses less bandwidth than a 2 minute video on Youtube.

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Replying to RafaelGarza:
Red Leader
By Red Leader
17th Apr 2015 14:01

slow

Tim Vane wrote:

What has bandwidth got to do with anything? Most cloud accounting sites will have very low bandwidth, all that's going up and down is a few numbers and some (locally cached) javascript code. Probably less bandwidth than AnyAnswers.

A whole day on a cloud accounting site probably uses less bandwidth than a 2 minute video on Youtube.

My main criticism of cloud accounting compared to desktop apps is that I've gone back to the old days of looking at a screen waiting for it to update.

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Replying to Red Leader:
By Tim Vane
17th Apr 2015 15:27

Agreed

Red Leader wrote:

Tim Vane wrote:

What has bandwidth got to do with anything? Most cloud accounting sites will have very low bandwidth, all that's going up and down is a few numbers and some (locally cached) javascript code. Probably less bandwidth than AnyAnswers.

A whole day on a cloud accounting site probably uses less bandwidth than a 2 minute video on Youtube.

My main criticism of cloud accounting compared to desktop apps is that I've gone back to the old days of looking at a screen waiting for it to update.

True enough, but that's mainly down to inadequate engineering and poor scalability at the back-end. Software companies will get better at this with time and the experience will quickly speed up. Some cloud sites are awfully slow, but some are very fast and it will only get better. Maturity again.

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By User deleted
17th Apr 2015 14:18

Sweeping statements …

But there is nothing tangible to back up your statements ‘.. e.g. reconciled bank balances don't agree to nominal ledger, no year end functionality, inability to deal with non VAT payments ..’ – start giving actual examples with software and then people can provide proper answers. As it stands no-one has a clue what specifics you are referring to and therefore cannot provide a response or determine whether you understand how to use the software in the first place

‘.. the software is only as useful as your internet connection ..’ – and your computer is only as good as your electricity supply. Some comments from others are valid (i.e. speed) – but that is probably not the fault of the app but more the infrastructure

Anyway the broad brush insults aimed at your client base ‘.. reality it's just a toy that the client can use as an excuse to play with their new smartphone/tablet/mac book while they drink coffee and use free wifi in Starbucks and are only too chuffed with themselves because they could take a picture of the receipt afterwards ..’ really beg the question as to whether you should have any clients at all if they are regarded with such contempt – how about posting this under your firms name, rather than a pseudonym, and then see how your clients react

The answer is very simple – don’t use Cloud systems and persuade your clients not to either

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By Bungo
17th Apr 2015 14:37

New practice
I will be setting up over the next few months. I wasn't thinking of cloud originally, but have recently started to think I need to. I thought I might get a cloud and non cloud option though.

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By carolelmcarre
17th Apr 2015 17:38

Horses for courses
For my practice I use QuickBooks desktop and can do all my clients books on it. Most of my clients either give me a pile of receipts, invoices and bank statements, or a printout of their accounting software to use. Qb seem keen on getting me to convert to the cloud, but why would I? My current system gives me control over what is processed and how, and only cost me (and so my clients) one fee. For cloud software I would have to pay a monthly fee as would each client, good for the software companies but not me. However if my client base grew to include a number of clients with significant amounts of transactions I guess it might be useful. Plus, as others have indicated, the time lag between processing on a pc and in the cloud can be much longer if you work in an area where broadband is often not speedy and sometimes intermittently faulty.

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Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
17th Apr 2015 17:45

@ Daniel - Hosting Iris

Much as I love Iris the hosting is far too expensive and, I believe, you still have to sign up for a 3 year contract (egarnham will confirm/dispute).

I've hosted Iris, and everything else, on Hosted Desktop UK for 4-5 years now (think it's 3 monthly revolving) and it's the best IT service I've ever used.  They have loads of Iris (and other software using) accountants as clients so give them a go.

I have logged in many times using a 3G connection from my caravan in a field in Dorset preparing accounts, tax returns and dealing with emails in the hosted environment, I may be getting on but I'm a long way from 65 million years old

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Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
17th Apr 2015 18:18

Just had my first glass of Merlot so will treat this...

as one of those weird Friday afternoon posts.

Actually, I've just read the other comments and JC has put it perfectly.  

My "Emperor's new clothes" are now 5 years old and I've worn little else in that time so have no idea what you are talking about.

There are 2 dozen cloud systems out there and you have clearly been unlucky enough to try one that is either unfit for purpose or is too advanced for you.

Not suited to high levels of transactions? Clear Books plc has kept its books on its system for about 7 years and processes over 10,000 transactions a month, the majority of which are automated.

Hold on a second....pouring another glass.....actually, ignore everything I say, it's all crap, you are right, keep your feet on the ground and, like JC suggests, don't touch it with a barge pole and, like so many accountants over the decades, keep your clients in the dark.  

Out of interest, where do you practice?

Cheers

 

 

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By ChrisScullard
17th Apr 2015 20:55

I'm amazed by this.  Since we

I'm amazed by this.  Since we adopted cloud software it has totally changed how we work, who we work with, what we can do, increased the value we provide to clients and increased productively and recovery rates.

I happen to agree that most clients make a total horlicks of the bookkeeping if left to their own devices, so we only let them have access to what they can be trusted with!  I've not seen a desktop package that allows that.

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By ndsheffer
17th Apr 2015 22:44

Cloud accounting.

The battle for "SME" type organisations used to be between Sage and Quickbooks desktop versions. A lot practitioners are a bit sniffy about Qbks, yet I've always found that that to be much better in terms of flexibility, and has more of the feeling of an Excel spreadsheet. Yes like anything it can be dangerous and can churn out mountains of rubbish when in the wrong hands.

Got a suspicion that Intuit are trying to fizzle out the desktop version in favour of the Cloud bandwagon.

It's now almost illegal not to own a computer, as, for example HMRC will fine anyone who doesn't file things online.

Paper is out of style, yet it remains handy stuff.

Maybe there will be no choice about Cloud Accounting. It might even turn out to be the next internet wonder.

Hmm... Not yet perhaps, so let's be careful about all of the marketing hype.

David

 

 

 

 

 

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Kieran Phelan
By KPEM online
18th Apr 2015 12:17

everything
........is going into "the cloud". Might be a fancy new for everything online, but it works better than desktop by miles. The ability to collaborate and ingegrate online systems and cloud tools is how the biggest impacts are achieved.

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By SKCOX
18th Apr 2015 18:08

Kashflow

I hold no particular brief for or against cloud accounting, but I've been working with Kashflow today and I do find it riddled with unhappy misconceptions. Number one: why on earth would a trial balance report call for a date range? That's just a failure to understand the word balance.

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Replying to Mallock:
Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
18th Apr 2015 22:40

Not at all

SKCOX wrote:

I hold no particular brief for or against cloud accounting, but I've been working with Kashflow today and I do find it riddled with unhappy misconceptions. Number one: why on earth would a trial balance report call for a date range? That's just a failure to understand the word balance.

As I used to say to members of staff, "just because we did it like that last year, doesn't mean you have to do it like that this year, use your imagination".

So too with a TB, a significant number of software users in 2015 are not accountants and don't use accountants and so just because the report says Trial Balance, doesn't mean it has to look the same as the TB I drew up 40 years ago, a non-accountant user is not bound by convention, and with this new breed of software, neither should we be.

I don't know how it works in Kashflow, but in Clear Books, it gives me two date range boxes but, by default, leaves the "From" box empty and fills the "To" box with today's date, if I change that to the year end 31 March, it gives me a classic TB and, when I click on any number, it drills down to that account showing me the history for the financial year.

If however I was interested in interrogating a client's books for just the last 3 months and so didn't need a whole 12 month's transactions, that might go on for pages, I'd ask for a TB with a date range 1 January to 31 March, you are right it is not then a TB in the classic sense it's a list of all nominal accounts with the P&L accounts showing the total of all transactions for the last 3 months (the balance sheet accounts are unaffected) but it makes it easier to jump between accounts to look at the history I'm interested in.

In other words the above example provides me with a one page set of accounts for the last quarter, 3 month P&L on top and the balance sheet below.

It's a glass half full/empty outlook on life I suppose, I see it as an extra useful facility.

 

PS:  Did you make this sort of fuss when Quickbooks released 15 years ago giving date ranges on the TB?

 

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Replying to fionabard:
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By SKCOX
19th Apr 2015 11:14

Paul

Paul Scholes wrote:

If however I was interested in interrogating a client's books for just the last 3 months and so didn't need a whole 12 month's transactions, that might go on for pages, I'd ask for a TB with a date range 1 January to 31 March, you are right it is not then a TB in the classic sense it's a list of all nominal accounts with the P&L accounts showing the total of all transactions for the last 3 months (the balance sheet accounts are unaffected) but it makes it easier to jump between accounts to look at the history I'm interested in.

 

A pedant writes:

I agree, but I would prefer the balance sheet accounts to be unaffected, as they apparently are in Clearbooks. In Kashflow they are not,e.g. the current account "balance" at a given date varies depending on the start date. What this gives you is an activity report summarised by account, and I agree with OGA that this is useful in many circumstances, but sometimes I just want a trial balance. I don't say that it matters, just that it annoys me.

 

 

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By petersaxton
18th Apr 2015 18:43

Bookkeeping

If people are still doing a lot of bookkeeping then they will take to online bookkeeping easily. Most clients will do the work themselves and we will be able to sort out any problems and the more irregular transactions. Years ago after my audit work in practice and then work in commerce I had to do bookkeeping to start off my practice: Sage, QuickBooks, TASBooks, Access Accounting, MYOB but as I did more year end accounts and tax work I find that I do very little bookkeeping on accounting software. I dropped all desktop software except QuickBooks which I think is the best.

I've now set up about eight clients using Clear Books and two using Free Agent and I was worried that I didn't know enough about the way the software worked. I'd chatted to two clients this week who love Clear Books but one client couldn't get to grips with it and he's asked me to do the bookkeeping for him. This is great news for me as I can become an expert on the software - or at least on what my clients need to know! I also think I will find it easier to learn about the software in my own time. Paul Scholes has helped me greatly with just a few comments. I think as accountants - like Paul - get involved more with the software the problems found by the OP will be eliminated. I have identified a lot of other clients who would benefit by using online bookkeeping and I am planning to discuss it with them next week.

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By User deleted
19th Apr 2015 01:02

In IRIS ...

... we roll forward the balances and just post the years transactions, much easier than posting the closing TB and then trying to see why it doesn't tie in with the b/f's. Having a to and from TB (which is the most useful report in SAGE 50 next to the bank rec) makes this so easy!

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By User deleted
19th Apr 2015 14:42

But you are mixing up ...

... trial balance and balance sheet!

As a pendant also a Balance sheet gives balances at a given point, a trial balance is proof that postings are complete for a secifed period (the clue is in the name. In SAGE you get the option of including b/f balances or not, with or without it is still a trial balance.

As stated above, if you want a trial balance that matches the balance sheet, just clear the start date and you will get that, but there is nothing to say a TB must match the balnce sheet, it all depends on your parameters!

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By SKCOX
19th Apr 2015 16:27

OGA

I have been out-pedanted, and I concede the point :-).

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Adrian Pearson
By Adrian Pearson
20th Apr 2015 13:07

Conflation and confusion

Hi all,

This thread started with the unfortunate conflation of:

Clients' inability to keep 100% accurate records, andThe features and limitations of cloud accounting software

Clearly, these are two quite separate topics.

Clients will always provide accounting records that need review and correction, regardless of the software they use - cloud or desktop. As far as new cloud accounting software is concerned, clients will choose to use what they believe suits them and their business and accountants need to be geared up for that. The days when accountants could mandate Sage to their entire client base are now gone.

If only there was some a way to automatically check client accounting records regardless of which software package they were kept in :)

Adrian
www.checkmybooks.co.uk

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
20th Apr 2015 22:14

Hi Adrian

Adrian Pearson wrote:

Hi all,

This thread started with the unfortunate conflation of:

Clients' inability to keep 100% accurate records, andThe features and limitations of cloud accounting software

Clearly, these are two quite separate topics.

Clients will always provide accounting records that need review and correction, regardless of the software they use - cloud or desktop. As far as new cloud accounting software is concerned, clients will choose to use what they believe suits them and their business and accountants need to be geared up for that. The days when accountants could mandate Sage to their entire client base are now gone.

If only there was some a way to automatically check client accounting records regardless of which software package they were kept in :)

Adrian
www.checkmybooks.co.uk

In general I tend to agree with you however one of the most significant benefits I've experienced with Cloud Accounting is the ability to better educate clients to the point at which I am now getting accounting records from clients which may require a review, but hardly need any correction.  In fact I picked up a new client last year who was pretty much self taught and who provided a perfect TB, including corporation tax and deferred tax provisions, deferred income and accrued expenses (he's an IT consultant) and another cloud user I spoke to recently who, after research, had capitalised the value of his leased van in accordance with the appropriate accounting standard.

From discussions with lots of users and accountants within the CB stable, it's clear that many accountants have still to grasp this benefit and so will not get involved with looking at the books till after the year end when, yes, just like in the good old days, clients know no better and make a pig's ear of the books enabling the accountant to make unnecessary money from telling them their bookkeeping is sub-standard and charging accordingly.

 

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By User deleted
20th Apr 2015 16:19

I use Xero ...

... a client's book-keeper uses it, I hate it. Clear books may be good, but at the moment I am at saturation point with cloud packages, and unless a user comes to me I do not have the head space to take on another system.

When did you use KashFlow last, only IRIS are chucking development at it and it is changing daily. The interface is dated, but I think in accordance with their past techniques they concentrate on the processing first and getting it doing what they need, then they tart of the interface , which to me is the better way, rather than than lovely slick gui's running rubbish code.

You obviously haven't looked at QBO or SAGE 1 though!

Cloud software is the Grand National, not the Derby, I want a system with Stamina as we are barely over the first couple of fences.

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Replying to kevinringer:
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By BigBadWolf
20th Apr 2015 16:29

3 months

Old Greying Accountant wrote:

... a client's book-keeper uses it, I hate it. Clear books may be good, but at the moment I am at saturation point with cloud packages, and unless a user comes to me I do not have the head space to take on another system.

When did you use KashFlow last, only IRIS are chucking development at it and it is changing daily. The interface is dated, but I think in accordance with their past techniques they concentrate on the processing first and getting it doing what they need, then they tart of the interface , which to me is the better way, rather than than lovely slick gui's running rubbish code.

You obviously haven't looked at QBO or SAGE 1 though!

Cloud software is the Grand National, not the Derby, I want a system with Stamina as we are barely over the first couple of fences.

 

I last used Kashflow 3 months ago & was not pleased with its reporting nor its interface nor its processing - I found Xero, Clearbooks & even Freeagaent to be far superior in all respects.

I have looked at Sage & QBO, Sage (as with their desktop software) I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole!! QBO has potential but still a little way to go on the development side.

 

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By User deleted
20th Apr 2015 20:43

three months is a long time ...

... in the clouds. But, as others have said, each to their own if we all liked the same thing life would be bland. I have said the interface is weak, but know it will improve quite quickly. The processing has changed dramatically in the last 3 months.

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Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
20th Apr 2015 21:58

Hi OGA

I have no doubt that Iris will do all that's necessary to improve KF and I have been toying with the idea of taking the plunge however a user (not an accountant) I spoke to recently said that she was thinking of giving it up as it didn't provide proper multiuser functionality.  She said it had years ago but they had stopped and any extra users were severley restricted in what they can do.

I wasn't sure she'd got this right as it didn't seem logical for a Cloud system to restrict users but then I got sent a survey from KF last week which asked "What functionality are you currently missing in your KashFlow offering" with one of the options being "Multiuser access with specified permissions"

Is that right, you can't have multiuser access with ranges of permissions?

I was also surprised to see Multicurrency bank accounts & Departments as two of the other options.  Again do they not currently cater for these?

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By DMGbus
20th Apr 2015 22:24

Kashflow problem

I have only seen Kashflow used by a single client and found an issue with coding a bank payment.  I was interested to see why a piece of equipment had been coded to sundry expenses by the client rather than additions to equipment.  Answer - not possible code properly without some very well hidden routine.

Very much inferior to Xero in this respect where coding of bank payments for capital expenditure does NOT involve secret hidden routines (three of us tried to find an answer to this Kashflow puzzle and failed).

The above bad experience with Kashflow was a few months ago, maybe Kashflow have learnt from their mistakes in this possibly early "user-find-the-errors" version and made the software more functional / user-friendly.

There were also logging in issues for multi users in Kashflow, and having enjoyed the good experiece of Xero I am of no mind to recommend Kashflow to anyone in this millenium.     If Kashflow is part of IRIS then this means poor customer service is to be expected in my experience, so no, I never want to see a client with Kashflow software ever again.

 

 

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By petersaxton
20th Apr 2015 23:19

3 months is a long time

I certainly agree that three months is a long time.

I looked at cloud providers: Sage, Liberty, QBO, Clear Books, FreeAgent and Xero but I made my choice based on long term issues.

Clear Books is managed by a UK based accountant with a sensible attitude so I felt they are more likely to go in the right direction in the long run.

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By User deleted
21st Apr 2015 08:02

Kashflow early days …

Have never really regarded Kashflow as anything other than an entry level ASP/SaaS product and as such recognise its limitations

In this respect one needs to understand where Kashflow came from in the early days (one of the original entrants into SaaS) and the fact that functionality took second place in the race to get an almost workable product to market – and fielding the problems once sales were underway

In this respect revenue & sales were paramount and the initial offering was very ropey (in line code with no code behind & using ‘old’ ASP despite VS 1.0 being available etc.) – although in fairness it pretty much did as it said on the tin, but without any additional functionality one normally associates with today’s products, although even then it was deficient when placed against other similar products which subsequently fell by the wayside – but it was early days and never forget that the likes of Sage hadn’t even woken up to things at that stage

Always remember reviewing Kashflow when it was release and coming away with the impression that it was the absolute bare minimum they could get away with & still make sales

The lesson here is never try to produce a finished product at the expense of sales – hook the customer first then develop once the money comes in

Kashflow obtained venture funding via the likes of Lord Young and at the time one always had an inkling in the back of one’s mind that it was ‘bad boy’ funding to demonstrate his egalitarian open mind – especially when there were equally good (probably better) products then in development – however, they did not make such good PR copy

Kashflow was always about a high profile entry level system based on a new way of doing things via the internet

That said, now that IRIS have acquired them they will undoubtedly throw resources at the product to bring it up to scratch & take it forward

 

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By User deleted
21st Apr 2015 09:00
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