Merry Xmas everybody

Merry Xmas everybody

Didn't find your answer?

and give me a nice big retirement pot, hahaha lol

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By User deleted
19th Dec 2014 15:26

Successful 'reasonable excuses' include memory loss - Award Framers v HMRC

 

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By User deleted
19th Dec 2014 15:28

Why ...

... don't you ask a lawyer.

And allow us to get on with questions about accountancy and tax.

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By andrew.hyde
19th Dec 2014 15:59

Fraudulently?

Your post indicates that it was fraudukent. Accidental fraud is not really possible.  Fraud involves the three Ds

Deprivation of economic benefitDeceptionDeliberate (the existence of mens rea)

So you have to dislodge one or more of these before you can get anywhere.  Now, you're trying to say, I think, that it wasn't deliberate.  So you need some robust medical evidence.  It's a very high hurdle, but you probably need to start by talking to his or her GP.

If a court of first instance, such as a tribunal, has already made a finding of fact that it was indeed fraud, then that's likely to stick, unless you can show that the finding was one that that no reasonable person would make.

Realisitically you're looking at mitigation and nothing more.  Good luck.

 

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Replying to Lone_Wolf:
By LittleWhiteBull
19th Dec 2014 16:59

Not my problem

andrew.hyde wrote:

Your post indicates that it was fraudukent. Accidental fraud is not really possible.  Fraud involves the three Ds

Deprivation of economic benefitDeceptionDeliberate (the existence of mens rea)

So you have to dislodge one or more of these before you can get anywhere.  Now, you're trying to say, I think, that it wasn't deliberate.  So you need some robust medical evidence.  It's a very high hurdle, but you probably need to start by talking to his or her GP.

If a court of first instance, such as a tribunal, has already made a finding of fact that it was indeed fraud, then that's likely to stick, unless you can show that the finding was one that that no reasonable person would make.

Realisitically you're looking at mitigation and nothing more.  Good luck.

 

The problem isn't mine but my fiancee's brother's problem. He already is thinking that a jail sentence or suspended sentence is what he is likely to receive. The only problem he has is his depression which already has caused him to be in a position where he cannot work. His depression has left him with a very short fuse that has caused him the loss of several jobs by arguing and shouting at employers and for taking time off to seek medical help to deal with his problem. It was worsened by the fact that he lost his long term partner, to cancer, a year ago on Xmas day.
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David Winch
By David Winch
19th Dec 2014 17:35

Are you sure?

If benefits were claimed over a period of 8 years which were not due I would be surprised if the amount was only £20,000.

However if that is the case & if there is mitigation through illness then a suspended sentence looks likely - probably combined with an unpaid work order.

The real kick in the teeth might however be confiscation on the basis of a 'criminal lifestyle' - which might well wipe him out financially.

As others have said this is a legal issue - not an accountancy one.  So he needs to talk to his legal team.  If he can fully repay the overclaimed amounts before sentencing that would be a smart move IMHO.

The HMRC depression case concerned civil penalties for late payment of tax (which has since been paid).  A different scenario altogether!

David

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
By LittleWhiteBull
19th Dec 2014 18:42

reply to David

davidwinch wrote:

If benefits were claimed over a period of 8 years which were not due I would be surprised if the amount was only £20,000.

However if that is the case & if there is mitigation through illness then a suspended sentence looks likely - probably combined with an unpaid work order.

The real kick in the teeth might however be confiscation on the basis of a 'criminal lifestyle' - which might well wipe him out financially.

As others have said this is a legal issue - not an accountancy one.  So he needs to talk to his legal team.  If he can fully repay the overclaimed amounts before sentencing that would be a smart move IMHO.

The HMRC depression case concerned civil penalties for late payment of tax (which has since been paid).  A different scenario altogether!

David

I have calculated the sum as being at least £32,000
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By howlin wolf
19th Dec 2014 18:27

Is that someone you perhaps ??

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
By LittleWhiteBull
19th Dec 2014 18:44

reply to howlin wolf

howlin wolf wrote:

Is that someone you perhaps ??

What are you insinuating?
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By LittleWhiteBull
19th Dec 2014 19:17
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By LittleWhiteBull
19th Dec 2014 19:17

.

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David Winch
By David Winch
19th Dec 2014 20:33

Difference

There is a difference, in sentencing terms, between "to the tune of £20,000" and "at least £32,000".

David

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By howlin wolf
20th Dec 2014 15:26

No insinuation

Sorry no insinuation meant. What I meant to say is it you that is fraudulently claiming all these benefits from innocent taxpayers and making up all these hard luck stories. Short fuse and Xmas day dramas indeed!! Pull yourself together or get treatment

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Replying to JDBENJAMIN:
By LittleWhiteBull
21st Dec 2014 17:33

reply to howlin wolf

[quote=howlin wolf]

Sorry no insinuation meant. What I meant to say is it you that is fraudulently claiming all these benefits from innocent taxpayers and making up all these hard luck stories. Short fuse and Xmas day dramas indeed!! Pull yourself together or get treatment

[/quote) I am a qualified accountant with a small practice earning very little but I don't turn to claiming benefits I am not entitled to. The person is my fiancee's brother and I have been asked to help. I have told him to use a solicitor rather than just a friend and have explained to him how serious the matter can get and that he must make the most out of his depression illness to help him and that he could be facing a prison sentence and confiscation proceedings. I don't, with his illness, think that he could face up to a prison sentence due to the consequence of facing time inside with other more hardened criminals.

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Image is of a pin up style woman in a red dress with some of her skirt caught in the filing cabinet. She looks surprised.
By Monsoon
21st Dec 2014 10:23

Wow, howlin wolf. Way to go to be kind and sympathetic. If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

Depression is a cruel, evil illness that can be fatal (I have personal experience of this).

It sounds like a complicated case but if depression is really the culprit then I wish the person involved the best of luck. It can really distort a persons judgement.

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By thehaggis
21st Dec 2014 10:54

Monsoon

I agree with your sentiments, but if you looked at all that the OP has posted over the last year or so, you would realise where the Wolf was coming from, and that "little white bull" was an apt amalgamation of two well known phrases.

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Replying to DJKL:
By LittleWhiteBull
21st Dec 2014 17:35

reply to the haggis

thehaggis wrote:

I agree with your sentiments, but if you looked at all that the OP has posted over the last year or so, you would realise where the Wolf was coming from, and that "little white bull" was an apt amalgamation of two well known phrases.

Namely bullshit.
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Out of my mind
By runningmate
21st Dec 2014 11:32

Those who are unable to cope

Unfortunately our society (or our government - & this is not intended as a party political point) is not geared towards recognising the difficulties of those who find themselves 'unable to cope' for some reason.

There are, as we accountants know only too well, a plethora of penalties for failures to do things on time - whether that be RTI, CIS, VAT, self assessment income tax, or something else - and those penalties are getting more severe.

It is fair enough to say that a person in business 'should' be able to deal with these things promptly - but how many businesspeople will, at one time or another, suffer a period of perhaps weeks or months during which they unable to attend to these routine matters?  Will the 'reasonable excuse' provisions operate to ensure that these people are not unfairly penalised?

RM

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Replying to Bobbo:
By LittleWhiteBull
21st Dec 2014 17:39

this person isn't me

runningmate wrote:

Unfortunately our society (or our government - & this is not intended as a party political point) is not geared towards recognising the difficulties of those who find themselves 'unable to cope' for some reason.

There are, as we accountants know only too well, a plethora of penalties for failures to do things on time - whether that be RTI, CIS, VAT, self assessment income tax, or something else - and those penalties are getting more severe.

It is fair enough to say that a person in business 'should' be able to deal with these things promptly - but how many businesspeople will, at one time or another, suffer a period of perhaps weeks or months during which they unable to attend to these routine matters?  Will the 'reasonable excuse' provisions operate to ensure that these people are not unfairly penalised?

RM

Do you know that I could hound you out and have you, and other people like you, taken to court for defamation of character. I quote yet again this person is not me as I have never claimed benefits illegally or fraudulently.
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Replying to Mr Hankey:
By mrme89
21st Dec 2014 17:42

If you say so

LittleWhiteBull wrote:

runningmate wrote:

Unfortunately our society (or our government - & this is not intended as a party political point) is not geared towards recognising the difficulties of those who find themselves 'unable to cope' for some reason.

There are, as we accountants know only too well, a plethora of penalties for failures to do things on time - whether that be RTI, CIS, VAT, self assessment income tax, or something else - and those penalties are getting more severe.

It is fair enough to say that a person in business 'should' be able to deal with these things promptly - but how many businesspeople will, at one time or another, suffer a period of perhaps weeks or months during which they unable to attend to these routine matters?  Will the 'reasonable excuse' provisions operate to ensure that these people are not unfairly penalised?

RM

Do you know that I could hound you out and have you, and other people like you, taken to court for defamation of character. I quote yet again this person is not me as I have never claimed benefits illegally or fraudulently.

 

 LittleWhiteBull 23 Oct Delete Block Forward

I only committed a crime of fraud according to the police, CPS and courts and they are not worth a bullet out of my gun.

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By howlin wolf
22nd Dec 2014 05:26

I'm sure it's you

Maybe you have never knowingly claimed benefits fraudulently or illegally. Come on own up now. You'll feel much better. 

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Replying to unearned luck:
By LittleWhiteBull
22nd Dec 2014 08:22

I have never claimed benefits

howlin wolf wrote:

Maybe you have never knowingly claimed benefits fraudulently or illegally. Come on own up now. You'll feel much better. 

But I was found guilty of fraud by taking money out of a limited company, both directors being me and my ex business partner, to get back £15,000 of £70,000 which was owed to me. Most of this money was my salary which was shown correctly through the records and accounts of the company and through the PAYE system. Well I finally managed to sue him by bringing the company back to life and he has just repaid me, through the courts, the full £70,000 including the £15,000 I repaid him through going to court. I am now using that money to have my fraud offence overturned and my solicitor has said it is likely this will be overturned. I will then will get my disqualification as a FCCA removed but I will probably go on their retirement register. But claiming benefits fraudulently, what do you take me for, as I never would resort to that. There is a lot of difference between fiddling the taxpayer and taking money back from a joint limited company where that money is owed to you. Perhaps howlin wolf you have illegally claimed benefits.
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By User deleted
22nd Dec 2014 09:18

No surprise

It's no surprise that people who genuinely suffer from depression (long or short-term) or other mental health issues get such a rough deal when there are people like the OP who try and use it as a get out clause when they've been on the fiddle and got caught out. This is what really [***] me off. The ones who really deserve the support just do their damnest to battle through until they fall apart, while the cheats and scroungers (and I'm including in that those who claim stress to get a few days off work whenever they fancy) make up stories and throw a tantrum when they're called on it. 

I've had depression and other mental health issues, had a best friend with severe depression (to the extent of attempted suicide) but equally known too many people who play the system. And as there will always unfortunately be the latter, mental health issues will always be looked on with suspicion and disbelief.  

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
By LittleWhiteBull
05th Jan 2015 08:44

NO FRAUD AT ALL

trawler wrote:

By fraudulent means no doubt


As well as recovering the sum from my ex business partner I have now had my criminal conviction overturned and been given £40.000 compensation for damages. I have now been readmitted, under my old name, to the ACCA register, as retired, and had my costs and fine refunded. In August last year I successfully appealed, on my late wife's behalf, for payment of DLA,Mobility and Carer's allowance to the tune of nearly £50.000 - there is no fraud there either. SO PLEASE REMOVE YOUR COMMENT AND REFRAIN IN FUTURE FROM MAKING THEM.
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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
Stepurhan
By stepurhan
05th Jan 2015 08:50

Where's the question?

LittleWhiteBull wrote:
SO PLEASE REMOVE YOUR COMMENT AND REFRAIN IN FUTURE FROM MAKING THEM.
Please reinstate your question and refrain in future from removing them.

You have done this several times in the past, usually when you get responses that you don't like. It is very poor forum etiquette and shows a marked lack of respect to the other users who have taken time to respond. If you want to be respected, you need to start showing a little respect yourself.

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Replying to johnhemming:
By LittleWhiteBull
05th Jan 2015 09:10

Thanks for your comment

I removed the questions as I was sick of getting irrelevant replies that kept harping on about my criminal record. If you are now up to date I have now had my criminal record removed and I am now sitting on a nice £200,000 retirement pot which was put together with not an hint of fraud. I am now using my experience to help other people in need, and unlike solicitors, I am not ripping people off as my reward is to get one up over the DWP, Councils, Police, CPS and Courts. My fee for this work is a big fat zero!

At least my new question was relevant as I wished everybody an Happy Xmas.

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Replying to Lone_Wolf:
By LittleWhiteBull
05th Jan 2015 08:38

Get it right trawler

trawler wrote:

Good luck and your 3 ex wives and your new finance Little White Bull you rock !!

Only one ex wife, last two wives died from life threatening illnesses.
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By User deleted
05th Jan 2015 09:03

Agree with @stepurhan ...

@LittleWhiteBull

If you are not prepared to leave your question up then don't post in the first place

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By User deleted
05th Jan 2015 09:04

Deja vu

Reading Little White('s Heap of) Bull(****) brought back such happy memories of someone else who used to tell us such funny fairy stories. Ah those were the days. I still wonder how his horse was (the one that (cough) left him in hospital)....

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