Has payment date for VAT due changed?

Has payment date for VAT due changed?

Didn't find your answer?

Have I been labouring under a misapprehension for years?

I have always paid our VAT on the 7th working day, up until about 2 years ago, with no problems.

We got into a surcharge situation (pregnancy and maternity leave, insufficient internal controls!) and are currently paying 15% for late payments. We paid our last VAT bill on 8th August, 6 working days from month end, to avoid surcharge as we had funds available, but have still been surcharged?

I have appealed and it has been thrown out - is it worth going to first tier tribunal or would I just be making an idiot of myself?

I notice on the HMRC website now there is a payment due date checking system, which also seems a new thing to me?

Any answers appreciated if only to tell me I am an idiot!

Many thanks

Replies (33)

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David Winch
By David Winch
28th Oct 2013 11:07

Working days?

Surely the deadline is 7 days after the end of the month following the end of the return period.  Where do you get 7 WORKING days??

David

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By Fran001
28th Oct 2013 11:51

Just out of my head David, I think!

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By mrme89
28th Oct 2013 12:03

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/returns-accounts/deadlines.htm

 

It is the 7th day, NOT working day.

 

This is pretty basic stuff ... not just knowing what the deadline is, but also being able to fire up google and search "vat return deadline". Surely before appealing, you would have done this.

 

I think it would be best if you used a competent book-keeper or accountant to look after your vat.

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By Fran001
28th Oct 2013 13:06

Thanks for the sarcasm, mrme89, much appreciated.

Apologies for asking an obvious question, but I was struggling to find the correct answer, as HMRC website seems to have changed considerably recently, and as I stated in my post I have always paid on 7th working day with no problems, narry a murmer from HMRC.

I was looking for a definitive answer from the Aweb gurus.

And just to scare you, I am a) qualified, b) producing accounts for several companies after a return from maternity leave, hence slight confusion.

Have you never found that things have changed and passed you by?

 

 

 

 

 

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Replying to MJShone:
By mrme89
28th Oct 2013 14:03

CPD

Fran001 wrote:

Have you never found that things have changed and passed you by?

 

 

Why is it members of professional bodies must complete CPD again?

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By WhichTyler
28th Oct 2013 13:51

It's been that way since 2010 (at least)

See http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/vat/brief1410.htm

 

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By DMGbus
30th Oct 2013 14:03

Direct debit has advantages

I have heard no-more-than-hearsay reports of VAT direct debits going wrong - nothing proven to my satisfaction (full background facts not made known by claimants in the two alleged cases).

 

I therefore have confidence in the Direct Debit method for paying VAT return liabilities.   As I see it two advantages accrue to the VAT registered person:

Responsibility for taking payment is shifted from the taxpayer to HMRC (taxpayer just needs to get adequate funds in bank a/c).Extra 3 days to pay beyond the 7th - ie. DD due on 10th or just a bit later

There is in fact a third option if (frowned upon!) paid by post by cheque must be cleared funds in HMRC bank a/c by 28th/29th/30th/31st whatever.

PS. Quite happy to answer your question, quite understand where you're coming from, no-one knows everything - even basic things can be peripheral to core knowledge expecially when time-out or time-off has occurred.

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By Fran001
28th Oct 2013 15:52

DMGbus, thank you for hitting the nail on the head - if only the directors would let me set up a DD my life would be a lot less stressful.

Best wishes to all helpful Aweb contributors

mrme89 you are clearly having a bad day so I shall not respond further, other than to say you clearly have too much time on your hands to waste time posting such facile comments.

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Stepurhan
By stepurhan
28th Oct 2013 16:22

In defence of mrme89

If you are in 15% surcharge territory, you must be on at least your fifth default. Vague assertions about "pregancy and maternity leave" notwithstanding, that's a pretty long-running error. I could understand not knowing the situation once, but HMRC will have sent a letter after the first time. This will have detailed the due dates. Have these letters not been read?

We can't know everything, but something like due dates for payments is a not exactly into the realms of obscure knowledge. To get to a fifth default without sorting this problem out is a pretty fundamental error. To not double-check the payment due date when you knew you were already in a surcharge period is pretty careless.

Whilst mrme99's tone may have been less than tactful in pointing this out, can you present a sound reason how you, as a professional, allowed a FIFTH default to occur? Should you genuinely wish not to respond further when challenged, perhaps you should not follow that assertion with cheap shots at your challlenger.

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By Fran001
28th Oct 2013 16:59

Hi Stephurhan

The 5 defaults occured because I spent most of my pregnancy and maternity leave stuck at our local hospital. We had no-one trained to cover me becasue we weren't expecting problems that early on, and it was all a mess, with me doing my best to help the director who was trying to cover for me and perhaps not making the best job as she has no accounts experience. Our accounts system is also bespoke, so an outside contractor who tried to help just made the mess worse. We are only a small business (20 staff, £2m t/o) and I am/was the accounts department.

I think I just got confused to be honest - why do you get extra time on PAYE payments but not VAT, that's what I would like to know now, but suspect it's historical.

Whether letters were read at the time - I sincerely doubt it, but you make a fair point, I think there was some heads in sand behaviour in the hope I would be back quickly and could sort things out.

I had no reason to check the due date because I mistakenly thought it was 7 working days - why would you check something if you think you are correct?

As for the cheap shot as you put it, mrme99 has PM'd me so we now have nothing further to say on that matter on here.

Hope that clears up my lack of professionalism to your satisfaction? It was just a rubbish situation that no-one could have forseen, coupled with rising prices reducing margin and cashflow impact not being realised. Naturally I now wish I had not posted this question, but I have always found Aweb to be helpful in the past.

 

 

 

 

 

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Replying to Jo Nokes:
Stepurhan
By stepurhan
28th Oct 2013 21:23

Not the only thing that should be checked.

Fran001 wrote:
Hi Stephurhan
If you are going to address someone by name, please try to spell it correctly.

To quote your opening post

Fran001 wrote:
Any answers appreciated if only to tell me I am an idiot!
. If you didn't feel able to take people doing just that, don't post a question saying so. Equally don't say that you don't wish to respond further and then take a dig at someone that points out you have been an idiot.

To reiterate, you had to be on at least the fifth failure to reach 15% surcharge, possibly sixth if your turnover is low enough. Whatever the reason for missing the earlier deadlines, you only have yourself to blame for missing this one. With the stakes so high, I would not have trusted my memory on this, especially if I'd been out for over a year (implied by the fact that the previous four defaults occurred while you were away). If your appeal was solely based on your stated belief that you had seven working days to file, you really didn't have a leg to stand on.

As I see it, if you want to pursue an appeal, your only hope lies in those surcharge letters from HMRC. If you can provide some evidence that they were not received you might stand a chance. It is more reasonable for your non-accountancy colleagues to have not realised the risks of entering a surcharge period if they did not receive letters informing them of these. Getting HMRC to accept this is likely to be tough, but it is your only avenue at present. They are unlikely to entirely overturn penalties that arose when a person that should have known better was handling matters, but you might get the surcharges dropped to an earlier stage.

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By User deleted
28th Oct 2013 17:03

Don't rely on past knowledge, or assumptions

why would you check something if you think you are correct?

To make sure that you are :¬)

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By Fran001
28th Oct 2013 17:28

BKD yup you're right lol
 

BKD yup you're right lol

 

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By ShirleyM
28th Oct 2013 18:59

I agree with mrme89 & Stephurhan

Assuming you submit your VAT online, the payment due date is printed on the submission receipt, isn't it? Of course, your bespoke system may not give that information, and if not, I would put in a request for the software to be updated.

Any answers appreciated if only to tell me I am an idiot!

Someone was an idiot to allow it to happen for so long, without digging deeper to find the cause. The directors can't blame someone who was on leave. It is up to them to make sure that the replacement is competent.

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By MarionMorrison
28th Oct 2013 20:37

Other angles

It's a case of not starting from here but you might have been able to appeal the late surcharges for the earlier, bed-bound Returns that went wonky.  Not really now though.

Why not stick the thing on Direct Debit?  That way you will get it taken on the 10-12th of the month and upon online submission you will get them telling you exactly when the money will be taken.

Finally the thing about the PAYE deadline not being consistent.  Well yes it has changed but the old regime used to be the 19th (or the next working day if that was a weekend) and they altered this to be the 22nd or the preceding working day if that hit a weekend).  

 

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By Tonykelly
29th Oct 2013 00:16

forget about extra 7 days.

I always tell people it is the end of the following month.

that way more chance of meeting deadline.

if they say there is an extra 7 days, I will say I work to end of the month, not into following month.

 

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Head of woman
By Rebecca Cave
30th Oct 2013 09:53

direct debit can be late

See this tax case where HMRC deducted the VAT late because the VAT return was filed one day  late online:

The Staircase Company Ltd v HMRC TC02867

http://www.financeandtaxtribunals.gov.uk/judgmentfiles/j7390/TC02867.pdf

 

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By ghewitt
30th Oct 2013 13:22

Was it really necessary

for all the unpleasantness that this post generated?

It was a simple enough question that could have been answered with alacrity.

Sure, the poster should have know these things and they are easily researched; but so what?

It could have been a pleasant exchange.

All that has happened is a lot of negative energy has been generated along with pompous point-scoring. And to what end? Do you feel better for it now?

And people wonder why there are wars. 

 

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Stepurhan
By stepurhan
30th Oct 2013 14:21

An argument needs two sides

As I acknowledged in my original post, mrme99 could have been more tactful in their response. However, the OP had been foolish and admitted the right of others to call them an idiot. Their aggressive response to someone doing this is what really kicked off the unpleasantness.

This was the only reason I felt the need to step in myself. It is important to remember that those responding to queries on here are giving up their technical knowledge for no reward. When a questioner responds in a hostile manner, I'm sure there are some that wonder why they bothered. If someone with specialist knowledge decides not to answer a future query for fear of being abused for doing so, that is a loss to the community as a whole. It is to avoid this happening that I feel those that those who get a hostile response unnecessarily need to know that the community supports them.

That said, going back and reading my second response, I feel I may have continued to be more harsh than was warranted. For this I unreservedly apologise. I hope that the OP does have some success with rolling back the surcharges by demonstrating the lack of knowledge of those dealing with VAT in their absence.

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By young ronaldo
30th Oct 2013 14:26

PS Fran

Be careful if paying PAYE late. They've changed the rules there as well and there are some sizable penalties knocking about.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/payerti/end-of-year/payepenalties/late-payments.htm#2

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By ghewitt
30th Oct 2013 15:32

We have a choice.

I can see the points made but surely, just because someone says "You can call me an idiot" does it mean that you should?

Often the poser is actually pre-empting the possibility that they will be so called and lessening the effects of that attack by saying "Call me an idiot if you will". I don't suppose for a moment that they want to be called such.

To my mind, if people reply to questions on here then that is their choice. If they get offended by what is said back, that is their choice too. If they chose not to ever reply again, well that is their choice as well.

We do not have to get angry or offended; we chose to and some people go looking for reasons to do just that; if they can't find them they will generate them.

People do ask ridiculous questions for a variety of reasons. But we are ridiculous beings; look around you and see what we do if you don't think this is so.

Can you imagine how this post would have turned out if someone had said something like:

"I think you will find it is the 7th day, working or otherwise; here is a website link that explains it all http:\\reallyhelpful.com. I doubt you will be successful at tribunal but there is no harm in trying, good luck with it".

We have a choice in how we deal with life.

On one hand we can chose to make a person sad; on the other to make them happy.

Why would we ever chose to make someone sad?

 

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By pauljohnston
30th Oct 2013 15:32

Good on you Fran

for asking the question.  That is what AWeb is about.

I hope that you are sorting out the mess.  If the Company is having problems paying the 15% a phone call to HMRC may give you some grace periods and thus allow the Co to avoid a further surcharge.

All of us at sometime have had a problem and asking a mate for help is the way forward.  In this case your mates were on AWeb.

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By ghewitt
30th Oct 2013 15:38

I rest my case

@pauljohnston Way to go mate!

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By Sage Coach
30th Oct 2013 15:46

Paying VAT

Those of us who are using Sage V2013 or Sage V2014 are finding the VAT process a real doddle.  The submission is simple - direct into HMRC, no re-keying, and using Sage e-banking makes the payment happen immediately, with a payment date of our choice.  The nominals are updated automatically and it all takes a couple of minutes.  Magic!

I might add that having a baby does make the brain dead.

 

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Replying to Rammstein1:
Red Leader
By Red Leader
30th Oct 2013 16:58

Sage is the solution

Only joking!

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By mrme89
30th Oct 2013 17:31

Pub Quiz

Local pub quiz last night ... a question was "When did vat go from 17.5% to 20%. I put 2009 as my answer, it was in fact 2011. My immediate reaction was "I hope fran001 doesn'y find out" :)

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By doh
30th Oct 2013 18:26

Has payment date for VAT due changed

And you wonder why we get a bad press.

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By geoffwolf
30th Oct 2013 22:40

why wait so loong

7th day after endof month after end of quarter gives 5 weeks to pay.

 

Why on earth is more time needed?

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By Fran001
31st Oct 2013 08:53

Thank you

Hello everyone

Just wanted to say thank you to those who have tried to help , and also to those who have pointed out my flaws, as I believe it has all been said with the best of intentions.

I would like to apologise if I came across as aggressive, that would never have been my intention. I have been a member of this website for twelve years and seen a lot of interesting posts which have been informative.

I truly appreciate the advice you can get on here, and the people who willing give up their time to help people like myself who probably don't deserve to call themselves an accountant.

Of course I am now going back on saying I wouldn't post further, so please villify accordingly, but I just wanted to say thanks and it has been interesting to see all the different posts.

I think this is probably me signing off, except to say it takes us around 3 weeks to process everything for me to have a final VAT figure geoffwolf - too much work and not enough time, ah the joys of small business. I should stick to my other hat of hypnotherapy perhaps!

Seasons greetings to all on this spooky day

 

 

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Replying to MurielGNunnally:
Stepurhan
By stepurhan
31st Oct 2013 09:35

All the best

Fran001 wrote:
...too much work and not enough time...
I'm sure we all know what that's like from time to time.

Hope everything gets sorted out one way or the other. Another job you don't have time for I'm sure, but a bit of training up of someone else on the basics of accounting and VAT would probably be wise. I strongly suspect that having to sort out the work of non-accountants in your absence has left you open to unfortunate errors from being overstretched. Having someone that knows how to keep things in relatively sensible order if you have to take time off in the future would be of great help.

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By Chris Smail
31st Oct 2013 09:15

Daily tasks Daily, Weekly tasks Weekly

Just post your bank every morning, makes sure sales are invoiced every night and enter purchase invoices the day that you receive them.

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7om
By Tom 7000
31st Oct 2013 12:18

Direct debit

I think if you let them DD it out it comes out about 10 days after month end....if you really really really need to monitor cash flow that closely

 

Me I just pay it 3 days after the quarter end not 33 days...theres no bank interest anymore so whats the point

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By Amit Kanani
31st Oct 2013 14:56

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/tools/vatpaymentsdeadline/calculator.htm

Try this. It's a new calculator by HMRC which gives you the exact date when the payment is due.

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