hMRand Customs Powers of Arrest

hMRand Customs Powers of Arrest

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On Thursday a client was contacted on his mobile phone by an Officer from Debt Management and Banking - HMR&Customs

The officer threatened to arrest my client, The tax he was attempting to collect is disputed and has been appealed against by me with a request to postpone the assessed and disputed tax

Since when did HMRand Customs have the powers of arrest and what was the unnamed offence? It was not mentioned but non payment seems to be what the DMB officer referred to,
Is it not a criminal offence to impersonate a Police Officer and issue Threatening Statements as my client assumed he had the power to arrest him therefore the DMB officer falsely represented himself as such

I am most distressed that an Officer of HMR and Custome could abuse his awesome powers in such a unethical , immoral and possibly illegal manner,

My client was very stressed as was his wife and it ruined my day off as I then had to phone the contact number left with my client to defuse the situation,
The Officed at DMB who answered my call knew about this but I am unsure who actually phoned my client so I could not complain at the time,
I was given a week to respond by DMB which I was in the process of so doing but this is part of a complex enquiry opened by HMRC two years ago!, Yes , two years ago and this type of intimidation does not help either myself or my very stressed clients,

I ask for your comments on this matter and your responses please

Replies (25)

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David Winch
By David Winch
07th Dec 2014 08:51

Check your facts

I suggest as a first step you check your facts.

Was your client arrested (meaning detained for questioning) or were the officers seeking to constrain his physical assets rather than himself?

If he was arrested was he cautioned & then questioned?  How were the questions & his answers recorded (in writing, on tape, on video)?

Was he taken into custody (i.e. transported away from his home / office to, for example, a police station)?  If so what record was kept of his detention there?

Was a police officer present at the time of the arrest?

If not were HMRC officers arresting him under their own powers of arrest (see s114 Police & Criminal Evidence Act 1984, s88 & Sch 12 Serious Crime Act 2007).

To answer your question HMRC officers (& and in particular HMC&E officers) have had powers of arrest for a long time.  But I wonder if your client is mistaken about being threatened with arrest (as distinct from having his physical assets constrained).

Arrest is of course a physical process - your client can hardly have been arrested over the phone!

David

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By johngroganjga
07th Dec 2014 09:04

David - I think tne OP is saying that his client was threatened that he would be arrested, but that in the event he has not yet been.

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David Winch
By David Winch
07th Dec 2014 09:19

Debt collection & arrest

I cannot see how arresting the taxpayer would assist in debt collection or how it could be justified as appropriate (e.g. to a custody officer at the police station or to the taxpayer's solicitor) in a debt collection matter.

HMRC should have some record (either a recording or a file note) of the telephone call made to the taxpayer.

As a first step the OP could ask HMRC for a copy of that.

Of course if HMRC suspect this taxpayer of, for example, fraud then he could be subject to arrest & questioning to assist the efficient & effective investigation of the suspected offence.  That might typically be done alongside a search of the taxpayer's premises for evidence & perhaps a restraint order freezing all his assets.  But that does not appear to be the case here.

Most likely it seems to me is that the taxpayer has been stressed by the call & has misunderstood what the HMRC officer was trying to tell him.

David

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By petersaxton
07th Dec 2014 09:44

I think the OP got carried away

"Is it not a criminal offence to impersonate a Police Officer"

I think you have to attempt some impersonation for that offence. I could say I am going to arrest somebody. That doesn't mean I'm impersonating a police officer. I could be wanting to make a citizen's arrest. "attempting to impersonate a citizen" anybody?

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By User deleted
07th Dec 2014 10:31

First of all we do not know what this enquiry is all about. FA 2007 did amend the Police & Criminal Evidence Act so the power to arrest can now be used for all criminal investigations. That said HMRC's powers powers to arrest are exercised by a few trained officers only and I will be surprised if Debt Management guys (basically tax collectors) have that power!!!!

To me the mobile threat sounds more like a pressure tactic.

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By petersaxton
07th Dec 2014 10:51

Debt Management

They say anything to get money.

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By taxbakbristol
08th Dec 2014 15:46

The client was threatened over the phone with arrest if he did not pay a disputed tax bill within 24 hours
He was not mistaken and there is no fraud or criminal element involved
Surely to state that you will have him arrested infers he has the right to do that and I consider that DMB do not have this power therefore the DMB officer was lying at least and threatening behaviour with duplicity etc
How low can an officer of state stoop to gain his collection bonus?

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Replying to The Dullard:
By taxbakbristol
09th Feb 2015 10:23

Update

I wrote to HMRC - complaints detailing my complaint and after 3 weeks of nothing  I wrote again using stronger language.

A reply came a week later informing me that this call had NOT been recorded and that the Officer concerned did not mention the word "arrest" or anything like it

That was it !

I then replied with a signed statement from my client selling out the his recollection of the conversation and  asking the Complaints Officer  several questions such as:

Why was this call not recorded?

How many calls are recorded?

Have there been any other complaints concerning the officer concerned?

Have HMRC checked other officers calls in a given month to check that the practice I complained of is not widespread etc

So far the usual HMR&Customs white wash and stone walling!

Any suggestions please

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David Winch
By David Winch
08th Dec 2014 16:38

Could it be that the HMRC DMB officer referred to a "charge" in the telephone conversation?  If so that would mean the taking of formal legal action in relation to property owned by your client - not a criminal charge.

You are correct that an officer in DMB would not have power to arrest the taxpayer.  Powers of arrest are limited to certain officers within HMRC (typically those dealing with criminal investigations).

DMB should have (at least) a file note of the telephone call.  Getting a copy of that is your first step.  I note that you have said you are unsure who actually phoned your client, but there should be a note on the file.

David

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By taxbakbristol
09th Dec 2014 01:01


Thank you for your help in this matter.

The tax in question is income tax derived from assessments made by HMRC that I have appealed against and requested postponement of any tax and national insurance due..

The client was so stressed after the call that all I could get from him was that he had been told basically to " pay up within 24 hours or be arrested".

He gave me the DM&B number to call and I explained to the officer the details and told her that I was writing to HMRC with a full response to the assessments within a week.

This was accepted but I did not ask to speak to the officer making the threats as my main concern was to defuse the situation.

It was only after the call and calls back to my client that I realised DMB to not have powers of arrest. This annoyed me as I considered their tactics unworthy (even of DMB) and possibly even illegal hence my post.

thank you

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By cirruspilot
10th Dec 2014 11:32

Threatened with Arrest

This sounds very much like a frustrated lowly paid HMRC staffer who is trying to push a client over the edge, without any authority. They do not have the power to arrest, debt is not a criminal offence. Also Inpersonating a police officer is a criminal offence and I would request in the strongest terms for a copy of the telephone conversation so as to detirmine whether a complaint of illegal harrasement  and inpersonation has took place.

The police will take a dim view of this.

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Replying to Beach Accountancy:
David Winch
By David Winch
10th Dec 2014 12:41

@cirruspilot

cirruspilot wrote:

The police will take a dim view of this.

On the contrary, the likelihood of the police showing the slightest flicker of interest in a spat between a taxpayer & HMRC is absolute zero.

David

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By Dave Investigator
10th Dec 2014 11:46

Threatened with arrest

Or perhaps DMB said "arrestment"?http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/dmbmanual/DMBM670920.htm

 

 

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By petersaxton
10th Dec 2014 11:50

Citizen's arrest

Threatening somebody with arrest doesn't mean you are impersonating a police office.

If you eat grass are you impersonating a cow?

 

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By Malcolm McFarlin
10th Dec 2014 12:36

HMRC & sub contractors

HMRC often use sub contract firms to collect their debts who often refer to themselves as 'Field Force Agents'. They often use mobile phones numbers as a contact address or not the official HMRC DMB address. They are, from my experience, very heavy handed in their approach.

I would strongly recommend that you make a formal complaint to HMRC and even better make the complaint via your MP. I think you will find that HMRC DMB officers do not routinely make a file note of telephone conversations -so it could be a matter of 'he said -she said'. You should download and save details of the time and calls made by both you and your client to HMRC from your telephone bills as this will form useful evidence for your complaint.

Malcolm McFarlin

www.mandrtaxadvisers.com

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By trecar
10th Dec 2014 12:57

Over the top

I have had many experiences of heavy handed treatment from tax collectors over the years, but have to admit that I have almost always found the DMB unit as being a stickler for following correct procedure. I am therefore surprised that such a threat was made. Obviously nowadays no-one can be arrested for debt as such and to threaten to do so was an obvious ploy to frighten. I would be inclined to pacify the client and then find out who made the threat, phone them and ask them how they think their boss or a court will take to such threats being issued. I bet the response would be, it was a misunderstanding. Your first priority should be the client's blood pressure and mental state. Calm him down and then get on with clearing up the outstanding items so that a resolution can be found quickly. Also if there is likely to be any tax due make sure that it is paid asap.

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By Tim1
10th Dec 2014 13:30

I wouldn`t be suprised by anything nowadays with regards to these Debt Management Field agents. We have a client who was told that along with the claim for unpaid tax (wrongly as it turned out) that he would be reporting her for attempted bribery because she offered him a cup of tea while he was waiting for us to phone HMRC and sort the matter out.

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Replying to johngroganjga:
By petersaxton
10th Dec 2014 13:39

Joke?

Tim1 wrote:

I wouldn`t be suprised by anything nowadays with regards to these Debt Management Field agents. We have a client who was told that along with the claim for unpaid tax (wrongly as it turned out) that he would be reporting her for attempted bribery because she offered him a cup of tea while he was waiting for us to phone HMRC and sort the matter out.

Would that be possible?

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By jiatbanus
11th Dec 2014 16:24

The HMRC fuzz.

You will note that HMRC no longer have the word SERVICE as part of their mission statement.

This, I suppose, brings the UK more into line with the European style of Fiscal Policing.

Nothing has changed, really, other than that you are probably no longer seen as Customers. (a strange term for those who own the shop!).

Debt collection, including tax collection, is not a fun job, but it should be legal, fair and sensible. Which means collecting the tax rather than busting the tax-debtor.  

 

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Replying to lionofludesch:
Basset Hound
By Cuchulainn
11th Dec 2014 17:07

I prefer....

.... the older term 'taxpayer'. It conveys a certain status on the person paying the tax and also serves to remind HMRC who actually funds them,
'Customers' usually have a choice as to where they place their custom. They certainly don't have a choice as to whom they pay their tax!!

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By jiatbanus
11th Dec 2014 21:59

Taxpayer

I agree. 

And better to be helped to be a tax "Payer" than to be bullied into being a defaulter. Too many times over too many years have we tried to stop them "pulling the rug".  To what end?

 

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By steve2646
18th Dec 2014 01:03

I have to admit than in an earlier life as a tax inspector when a smarmy git I was investigating stated "ok I have been fiddling but I have no money so f*** you what are you going to do about it (or words to that effect)" I simply replied well we jailed Leicester Piggot for less.  Worth it to see his face.

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By Malcolm McFarlin
09th Feb 2015 11:00

Adjudicator's Office

If you have had a reply from the HMRC Complaints team which you are unhappy with, you can ask for his/her decision to be reviewed. You can, once you have exhausted all the internal HMRC review procedures, continue with your complaint to the Adjudicator's Office, if you are still not satisfied.

Don't expect miracles though, the Adjudicator's Office is inundated with cases and it can take several years to have your case dealt with! The Member of Parliament route is a better option. It will hopefully make the officer think twice before treating the taxpayer this way.

Malcolm McFarlin

www.mandrtaxadvisers.com

 

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By petersaxton
09th Feb 2015 11:28

MP

I'm in the process of complaining about HMRC. They took me off from being an agent with two of my clients but I sent HMRC a letter in October with letters from my two clients saying that they didn't ask to change their agent. I was reinstated in January. I am now complaining that HMRC, despite having clear evidence in October that they had committed a criminal offence, they didn't act until January. HMRC are now saying they don't keep records of who makes changes to client details. This is an assertion I do not believe. I will be complaining to Lin Homer and then my MP and then the Information Commissioner.

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By taxbakbristol
24th Mar 2015 01:42

Update

I complained (twice) and finally received a letter informing me that DMB never record telephone conversations and never have.

There, its one persons word against another.

I asked why DMB do not record telephone conversations but never received a response on that.

Does anybody know any different as I do not trust Complaints Dept replies............

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