Hospitality Allowance for a Church Elder

Hospitality Allowance for a Church Elder

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A client, which is local church, wishes to reimburse one of its elders, who is an employee, for hospitality expenses.  He and his wife regularly entertain church members and other visitors on behalf of the church, by providing meals and/or overnight accommodation.

What is the best way for this to be done, without creating complicated tax consequences?

For example, could the church agree to pay the elder an allowance of £X per head for each meal, and £Y per night for bed and breakfast accommodation, provided to guests on behalf of the church?

And, if so, would it be possible and/or beneficial for the church to apply for a P11DX dispensation in respect of such expenses?

Replies (18)

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By duncanedwards
14th Aug 2014 12:50

Not clear
What an "elder" is. Is it an employment?

I suppose there is a risk of being assessed as carrying on a hospitality business so the question would be how is it demonstrates that there is no profit intended (or in fact earned).

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
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By bajones
14th Aug 2014 13:21

I think

Isn't "elder" is a mormon thing?

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Replying to ACCAGOAT:
RLI
By lionofludesch
14th Aug 2014 13:24

But ...

bajones wrote:

Isn't "elder" is a mormon thing?

But is it an employment thing ?

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Replying to ACCAGOAT:
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By neileg
14th Aug 2014 13:25

mm??

bajones wrote:

Isn't "elder" is a mormon thing?

No it's not just Mormons. But members of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints pay tax just like everyone else.
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Replying to ACCAGOAT:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
14th Aug 2014 13:28

Church of Scotland has Elders

bajones wrote:

Isn't "elder" is a mormon thing?

 

The Church of Scotland congregations have Elders who, along with the Minister, run the individual church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministers_and_elders_of_the_Church_of_Scotland

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RLI
By lionofludesch
14th Aug 2014 13:06

Actual costs

Doubt if you could get a flat rate agreed.

Worth asking, I suppose.

Otherwise, it's reimbursement of actual costs incurred.

Have you considered Mark 12:17 ?

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the sea otter
By memyself-eye
14th Aug 2014 13:25

Common parlance

in most Christian places of worship and in one of John Wayne's films....

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By Robin Dillamore
14th Aug 2014 13:25

Responses

Thanks for your responses.

Mormons do have 'elders' but so do some of the more conventional Christian denominations.

In this situation, the elder in question is an employee, and so potentially P11D issues would arise.

With regard to Mark 12:17, lionofludesch, I should be interested to hear your thoughts on its application in this scenario!

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Replying to pauljohnston:
RLI
By lionofludesch
14th Aug 2014 13:55

Tax advantage

Robin Dillamore wrote:

With regard to Mark 12:17, lionofludesch, I should be interested to hear your thoughts on its application in this scenario!

Clearly, there should be no tax advantage !!

What about Rent-a-Room relief  to cover b+b and actual costs of ingredients to cover the meals ?

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paddle steamer
By DJKL
14th Aug 2014 13:38

More subtle approach to issue

 

If the elder is making a contribution to the Church each year via say Gift aid, which I expect is quite likely, could he/she stop making this payment and instead provide the accomodation/services to the church for free.

This might not work re the feelings of the parties, and the Church would lose the tax benefit of the contribution as I doubt a Gift Aid payment can be made by providing meals etc as a gift in specie, and the quantum of the possible two way payments may not match, but it would solve the hassle of the Church needing to reimburse the cost and deal with the tax issues.

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By bajones
14th Aug 2014 13:58

there was a point

There was a point..from what I understand of the mormon church, it would have been unlikely for the elders to be employees, as all adult males are elders and services to the church are duties rather than employments.

Never heard of a Church of Scotland though, I think you're making that one up.

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Replying to SteveHa:
RLI
By lionofludesch
14th Aug 2014 14:06

Sheltered Life

bajones wrote:

Never heard of a Church of Scotland though, I think you're making that one up.

What ????????

What about the Church of Ireland ?

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Replying to SteveHa:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
14th Aug 2014 14:06

Protestant Reformation passed you by, it appears

bajones wrote:

There was a point..from what I understand of the mormon church, it would have been unlikely for the elders to be employees, as all adult males are elders and services to the church are duties rather than employments.

Never heard of a Church of Scotland though, I think you're making that one up.

You are joking,!!!!!

The two main churches in Scotland are  the Church of Scotland and  the Catholic Church. The majority of churches in Scotland belong to the Church of Scotland.

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Replying to The Innkeeper:
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By bajones
15th Aug 2014 13:36

yes

DJKL wrote:

You are joking,!!!!!

[/quote]

Sorry, just my humour.  Where was the "Better Together" campaign when you needed them?

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By Peter The Painter
14th Aug 2014 15:37

Have you considered ....

If the individual might be within EIM 60046?

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By RetiredTax
14th Aug 2014 18:02

Church Elder
Re Peter T P.
EIM 60046 refers only to "Ministers". Here we have an Elder (probably not the Minister)!

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By gbuckell
15th Aug 2014 12:30

Elders

Really in confirmation of various comments above, elder is a term used by a number of different churches with a variety of broadly similar meanings. In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints of which I am a member it is more widely used as it denotes an adult holder of the priesthood (which applies to all active adult males) but is also used as a term to describe male full-time missionaries (you know  the smart young men with name tags that say Elder ... - as seen on TV recently!). As we do not have paid clergy the issue of elders being employees does not arise!

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RLI
By lionofludesch
17th Aug 2014 08:49

Reminds me ....

It reminds me of the little old lady who went into the Post Office to ask for a dozen Christmas stamps.

"Certainly, madam," said the clerk, "What denomination ?" (meaning first or second class, like).

"Oh - I don't know", said the old lady.  After some thought, "I'll take six Baptist and six Roman Catholic".

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