How much can we do to help?

How much can we do to help?

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Client phoned yesterday afternoon, very panicky and upset. Personal tax liability of some £4k and no means of paying and HMRC were chasing payment. I told him to come to the office today and we'd phone HMRC together and sort something out. He sounded a lot more positive when we ended the call.

Just found out that he killed himself last night and now I feel like absolute shit and that I could/should have done more but what else could I have done?

Replies (14)

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By landscaper
21st Apr 2015 16:06

Please don't blame yourself

You calmed him down, you offered him help today - you didn't say get stuffed I'm too busy.  His suicide is NOT your fault.  It is no-one's fault; not even HMRC's.  It was a decision he took at a moment in time.  He may not have made that decision today but that is what makes suicide so awful for those left behind.  Please, please do not beat yourself up about this.  You were kind to him - be thankful for that.

 

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By andy.partridge
21st Apr 2015 16:16

You did what you could

Please don't blame yourself.

In the fullness of time I would imagine it will emerge that he had other challenging issues that you would not and could not have known about in his life.

Often we feel like we know a client but actually we usually only know well one facet of their lives.

You cared about him when he was in trouble and you care about him now. You sound like a good person.  

 

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By Rachael White
21st Apr 2015 16:18

I'm really sorry to hear about this and very sorry for your loss.

For someone to have reached that point, there has to have been a lot going on - much more than a personal tax liability. Perhaps he had already reached the decision. 

The point is, it was not your fault and you weren't to know - take comfort in the fact that you tried your best to help him and as the member above says, were kind. 

I know it's tough but stay strong - the community's here for you. 

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Stepurhan
By stepurhan
21st Apr 2015 16:32

Not your fault

You said it yourself in your last sentence, what else could you have done.

The answer, in practical terms, is nothing. Start down that road and next thing you know you'll be paying all your clients' tax bills to avoid being the "cause" of any further such incidents. That way madness lies.

The fact is you provided all the support that a professional adviser could and more. You offered to help him negotiate a way forward with HMRC for a tax bill that was presumably due for payment nearly three months ago. There are some who would have told him he needed to negotiate with HMRC himself, or even berated him for not setting money aside (as I'm sure we all constantly tell clients to do). You didn't. You offered him support instead.

As others have said, it is unlikely that this alone led to his decision. I might not even have been a major factor, given you'd reassured him and he seemed calm when you rang off. Even if it was a factor, it was one over which you had no control. Short of paying it yourself (see route to madness above) you couldn't make the problem go away entirely.

It's understandable to feel bad when something like this happens, but it's really not your fault.

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By Anne Robinson
21st Apr 2015 16:44

More often than not families don't see this coming so how could you possibly have known that in your professional capacity. You did your best and cannot live under the cloud of "what if" no matter how dreadful it seems at the moment. I know that this is easier said than done.

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David Winch
By David Winch
21st Apr 2015 16:44

Very sorry to hear this

Dealing with clients who face difficulties can be very challenging.

Assuming that he really did mean to kill himself then he took that decision.  I suspect that even if you were in his position & faced all the problems he was facing (& you don't know what those are) you would have concluded that suicide was not the best way forward.

Frankly I do not think that for a person in good health suicide can ever be the best option.  It actually doesn't solve any problems - just leaves them for someone else to deal with.

No doubt you will want to do your best for his remaining relatives.

So it's not that you could have done more before he died - it is that you can now do something to help those who are left behind to clear up.

David

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By Eve E
21st Apr 2015 16:52

Really not your fault

I can't really add anything much to what has already been said above, they are all very true words, but I just wanted to add my support and reiterate that there is absolutely nothing more that you could have done.

 

This tax bill could only have been the tip of a very large iceberg, there will have been many other underlying problems that led to this unfortunate and very sad outcome.

 

You did everything that you could have done, and offered help when it was needed, which I am sure was appreciated, so please don't blame yourself.

 

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By mwngiol
21st Apr 2015 16:54

Thank you

Thanks everyone. I suppose I know I couldn't have done anything differently but it's really knocked me off kilter. Been running through the conversation in my head wondering if maybe one changed word could have changed what happened. But like Stepurhan said I'll go mad if I keep thinking like that.

Thanks as well David, that's good advice. His mother is a client as well and is probably the sweetest kindest old lady you could ever wish to meet, and apparently she was the one that found him. Just thinking about what she must be going through makes me feel physically sick.

Thanks again for the kind words. I'll try to be back to being an argumentative sarcastic git as soon as possible.

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By sarahg
22nd Apr 2015 08:11

Gosh how awful

I agree with the other comments, not your fault at all.  Sounds like you did everything you could, you gave him your time and support.

At the end of the day, he had the tax money at some point and has obviously spent it.

Big hugs x

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By MissAccounting
22nd Apr 2015 08:48

AS above

Extremely sorry to hear about this and its not something I want want to go through with one of my clients that for sure.  As a few people above have said though there must be more going on as while £4k is a lot of money its really not enough to take your own life for,  I personally dont think you could have done any more with the client.

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By Kazmc
22nd Apr 2015 10:22

So sad

That is so so sad for everyone concerned and there is not much really I can add to what has already been said, except for, of course you could not have done any more than you did. 

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By Bungo
22nd Apr 2015 10:41

Be kind to yourself
It sounds to me like you showed your client kindness and empathy. You also provided practical advice and support. So this did not happen because you didn't say some magic words to prevent it. Nothing will prevent someone from committing suicide if they are determined.

Be kind to yourself.

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By cmls100
22nd Apr 2015 11:22

As above, there was nothing more you could have done.  His tax bill may have been one aspect that was troubling him, but almost certainly not the only thing that led him to take that action.

 

Things like this sometimes affect us in ways we don't expect.  If you are an ICAEW member you could contact CABA for additional support if you feel that you need it.  Free and confidential.

http://www.caba.org.uk/

Other institutes may have something similar if you are a member elsewhere.

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By Southwestbeancounter
22nd Apr 2015 17:02

You did more than most

You did more than many people in your position would have done as others have pointed out - you would have felt awful if you'd say not had time for him and gave him 'short shrift' or told him to get a bank loan or sell his house (as HMRC said to one of my clients on occasion!) or come to see you when you were less busy but you showed empathy and assisted him as best you could by booking him in at short notice to sort the matter out. I do feel for you though.

This did send shivers down my spine as this happened to me in 2009 - a new client contacted us to ask us to sort out her VAT as she was 3 years behind in her ltd co. A good existing client of ours was a good friend of hers so we agreed to take her on. I asked for £500 upfront towards our fees telling her that the fees would be a lot more than that but this would be a start and that we would bill her little and often but that between us we would get the matter sorted out - she agreed. The next Monday she brought her books in and we discussed what needed to be done; on the Tuesday she rang and said she felt she could do more book-keeping to help us so could she pick the books up the next day and work on them and then bring them back the following week. We agreed this but thought that she just didn't want to pay our fees. She never turned up on the Wednesday - she told her Husband she was coming to see us and then drove to a secluded spot in her sports car, took an overdose and never regained consciousness. I felt like you do but in time realised that her problems were not just about being behind with her VAT. The irony was that over the next 9 months we painstakingly managed to get three years of accounts put together and the associated VAT records, got them agreed by HMRC and the resultant VAT rebate was tens of thousands of pounds. That made the situation even sadder as she wasn't able to benefit from it.

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