I need to get rid of this Director who is a liability to the company

I need to get rid of this Director who is a...

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Hi all,

I have a director who has a 1% share in the company and my son who also has a 1% share, I obviously have 98% shares in the company.

I wish to make redundant the first director and wish to vote him out as the guy is a liability.

He is constantly late for work and some times doesn't even phone in, he has been in police custody twice last month whilst under the influence of alcohol causing damage to property and has had 3 days off because of it. As a director he could be linked to the company in the local papers which is giving me unnecessary stress. He has upset one of my loyal staff and i have lost a customer because of his i'm always right attitude. The person in question is also a drinker and my staff and customers have smelt drink on his breath as have I although i believe he isnt drinking at work but is heavily drinking in the evening and is obviously effecting his work and his working attitude in the day. He is a liability and i need to get shot of him. My dilemma is, he as an employee of the company looks after the I.T and if dismissed could seriously damage the company and its communications, email website, server, backups ect

Our work has gone down significantly over the past 5 months and I need to lay him off as i can no longer afford him. I wish to vote him out with immediate effect and make him redundant with one months garden leave. If i serve him 28 days notice for a board meeting he will know why and he could take measures to disable the company in that time,  this is something i wish to avoid, hence the garden leave.

Due to the circumstances is this the best approach and lawful.

There is no director service agreement and shareholder agreement in place and he has been with the company 2.5 years.

Many thanks

Replies (34)

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By cheekychappy
02nd Dec 2015 11:10

We all like a pint. Just buy him some vouchers for Wetherspoons and give him a couple of weeks off.

P.s you need paid for legal advice.

Thanks (0)
By johngroganjga
02nd Dec 2015 11:15

Wrong place
This is a legal question, and not something an accountant can help you with.

Thanks (3)
By Tim Vane
02nd Dec 2015 11:19

Do you have a problem with your herbaceous borders? Or perhaps you'd like to know how to get stains out of an axminster carpet? All these things and more besides are not things you would usually come to an accountant for help with. You could add legal matters to that list too.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Tax Dragon:
Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
02nd Dec 2015 11:41

Terrible Attitude

Tim Vane wrote:

Do you have a problem with your herbaceous borders? Or perhaps you'd like to know how to get stains out of an axminster carpet? All these things and more besides are not things you would usually come to an accountant for help with. You could add legal matters to that list too.

I am pleased I am not your client, when I am off seeing the lawyer i will be asking him if he knows an accountant who can support my business and not ridicule me when I need help.

Most small business people use a lawyer when they move house or buy a property and don't have a lawyer on tap for every query they have, they do have an accountant though who is usually their first point of contact for issues regarding the business not just about how much tax they owe.

 

Thanks (5)
Replying to OldParkAcct:
By johngroganjga
02nd Dec 2015 11:47

Accountants

Glennzy wrote:

Most small business people use a lawyer when they move house or buy a property and don't have a lawyer on tap for every query they have, they do have an accountant though who is usually their first point of contact for issues regarding the business not just about how much tax they owe.

Yes of course but the first thing any accountant should say when approached about a legal matter, especially a contentious one, is to send the client to a suitable solicitor, and not to purport to offer any advice at all.

Tim is absolutely right, albeit a little acerbic.

Thanks (1)
Replying to OldParkAcct:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
02nd Dec 2015 14:04

Well meaning but dangerous

Glennzy wrote:

Tim Vane wrote:

Do you have a problem with your herbaceous borders? Or perhaps you'd like to know how to get stains out of an axminster carpet? All these things and more besides are not things you would usually come to an accountant for help with. You could add legal matters to that list too.

I am pleased I am not your client, when I am off seeing the lawyer i will be asking him if he knows an accountant who can support my business and not ridicule me when I need help.

Most small business people use a lawyer when they move house or buy a property and don't have a lawyer on tap for every query they have, they do have an accountant though who is usually their first point of contact for issues regarding the business not just about how much tax they owe.

 

But surely an accountant who does/says much more than see a solicitor, or even suggests a solicitor walk a dangerous path (though be sure about who you suggest as if any problems they are then perceived as of your making), but anything beyond this is taking liberties with your professional indemnity insurance. 

Certainly when I studied accountancy there were a core of legal areas thought appropriate and suitable for an accountant to have knowledge about, namely contract, partnership law, company law, agency, insurance, delict and insolvency law, but even then nobody expected the accountant to advise in detail about these areas unless he/she adopted a niche area later in his/her career- I used to work for a firm where a partner had extensive company law expertise as he had been the Company Secretary for a quoted investment trust, and there are a few posters on here that have in depth legal knowledge within particular areas, but as a rule I think accountants are jacks of all trades masters of none vis a vis legal matters. Employment law is difficult, there are a lot of nuances and very subjective areas re behaviour- often process appears to be more important than the facts (one person's reasonable is another's unreasonable) and there is probably a good reason why it was not part of the required law course for the Scottish Institute.

Accordingly I tend to agree with the other posters that this is one of those areas where an accountant cannot really advise unless he/she has the requisite professional skills- we all bemoan having to disabuse our clients re man in the pub tax planning ideas (misplaced), solicitors must similarly hate it when clients come to them with a skewed understanding due to well meaning but misguided advice from the client's accountant.

Thanks (0)
Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
02nd Dec 2015 11:25

Follow your Disciplinary procedure

Have you not legal cover as part of your insurance or an arrangement with Penninsula. You will have to deal with him through your disciplinary procedure as you would with any staff. This can be long and drawn out but can avoid you going to the tribunal. If you paperwork is poor ie no contracts and staff handbooks you will need to get some legal support to deal with it, or try speaking with ACAS who can be very helpful. Have you not discussed this with your existing accountant as if he is supporting your business he should be able help or advise or at least point you in the direction of someone who can, without just telling you to appoint a lawyer at the first whiff of trouble.

Thanks (1)
By cheekychappy
02nd Dec 2015 11:39

Don’t faff about with helplines.

You need structured legal advice.
You will have to jump through the hoops of getting rid of an employee and a shareholder. This shouldn’t be done with forums and helplines.

You need someone to look at your policies, procedures, the timeline of events etc.

Redundancy is probably an unlikely outcome. I’m not a legal expert, but by going down this road I think you are leaving your self open for constructive or unfair dismissal but a lawyer will be able to advise further.

ACAS and other helplines are good for routine queries such as holiday entitlement or procedural queries. This is not a routine query and the advice will depend on a lot of factors.

Dick about with free advice at your own peril.

Thanks (1)
By Tim Vane
02nd Dec 2015 11:44

Be sure to ask the lawyer about your herbaceous borders too. He'll be on the clock so probably happy to use up a chargeable hour or two helping you search the yellow pages for a gardener.

Thanks (0)
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By carlh
02nd Dec 2015 12:21

you do need legal however

if he does not have a service contract, employment contract or is not paid by PAYE he is not an employee of the company but an officer and this changes it a lot and makes it easier.

first thing is protect your IT  bring in someone from outside to lock it down so he cannot damage it.

second call a EGM meeting giving 28 days notice and remove him he cannot claim unfair dismissal for the reasons above and also you stated one or more of the below

There are many reasons that justify an executives or directors dismissal that are not considered as being unfair including :-

genuine redundancy (as opposed to a fake or sham redundancy)unacceptable behaviour - theft, assault, drunkenness or anti-social behaviouremployee mentally or physically incapable of carrying out the workcontinuance of employment is illegal or a breach of statutory dutyother substantial reasons determined by an Industrial Tribunal

however you will have to give him a fair value for his shares, and the company has first offer of these but all depends on the shareholders agreement and articles.

Thanks (0)
By williams lester accountants
02nd Dec 2015 13:13

FSB

Are you a member of the FSB? I believe they provide some employment legal protection within the membership fee.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Thomascd
02nd Dec 2015 13:56

fsb

I was going to suggest the Federation of Small Businesses too.

Their legal advice line was worth its weight in gold to us recently when an employee was on long term sick ... and using the time off to set up a business in competition with us!

Its not just 'advice' they will give you all the forms you need, help you draft letters, tell you what steps you need to take so that you're following all the right procedures. 

www.fsb.org.uk

 

The membership is very reasonable and worth it for the legal assistance alone.

 

 

Thanks (0)
Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
02nd Dec 2015 18:48

Accountants or Business Advisors

Over half accountants I see advertise their services, do so as accountants and business advisors yet very few in reality actually advise the business on matters away from the company tax return. I am not saying stepping into the shoes of the lawyer is what you should do. This guy needs a practical solution to this problem. Telling him to "[***] off its nowt to do with you" is not a practical solution. Anybody who employs staff very quickly finds there is a lot of baggage that comes with it. The problem with relying on legal advice for every problem you have in the business is that unless you have a rich company they are not there 40 hours per week, and when staff matters go wrong is usually because of a knee jerk reaction to an incident within the work place. For instance if the guy in question turned up for work [***] and causing a commotion, 99% of business owners would go and deal with it whilst Tim would be too busy hiding under his desk calling his lawyer for what to do. If you employ staff you need to have a basic understanding of what comes with it, as accountants advising business you need a working knowledge of non tax issues so you can aid your client to find a solution. I have worked in both practice and industry so have had to develop skills outside of the core work I was recruited to do. I worked for company with a turnover over £20m with 1250 staff and we would spend less than £10k on lawyers per year as we knew how to run the business ourselves without consulting 3rd parties. Carlh offers a practical solution to the problem which is more in keeping with the response you would expect.

Thanks (2)
Replying to Paul Crowley:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
02nd Dec 2015 17:55

He who dares

Glennzy wrote:

Over half accountants I see advertise their services, do so as accountants and business advisors yet very few in reality actually advise the business on matters away from the company tax return. I am not saying stepping into the shoes of the lawyer is what you should do. This guy needs a practical solution to this problem. Telling him to "[***] if nowt to do with you" is not a practical solution. Anybody who employs staff very quickly finds there is a lot of baggage that comes with it. The problem with relying on legal advice for every problem you have in the business is that unless you have a rich company they are not there 40 hours per week, and when staff matters go wrong is usually because of a knee jerk reaction to an incident within the work place. For instance if the guy in question turned up for work [***] and causing a commotion, 99% of business owners would go and deal with it whilst Tim would be too busy hiding under his desk calling his lawyer for what to do. If you employ staff you need to have a basic understanding of what comes with it, as accountants advising business you need a working knowledge of non tax issues so you can aid your client to find a solution. I have worked in both practice and industry so have had to develop skills outside of the core work I was recruited to do. I worked for company with a turnover over £20m with 1250 staff and we would spend less than £10k on lawyers per year as we knew how to run the business ourselves without consulting 3rd parties. Carlh offers a practical solution to the problem which is more in keeping with the response you would expect.

Sorry, it is one thing to operate one's own business as one likes, and take the consequences if due process/meetings etc have not been followed e.g. we have taken possession from defaulting tenants of commercial properties without due process/ notice etc, but that is our risk. It is quite another matter to professionally advise a client  within an area outside one's expertise. Employment law/interpretation is forever changing (I get e mail bulletins from our solicitors on employment law throughout the year), unless one does it for a living  it is a dangerous path to offer advice outwith one's area of competence.

Whilst you might be comfortable imparting such advice to your clients my comment to mine would be that employment law can be tricky,  even for large entities-ask Chelsea FC, and they really ought to consult a solicitor.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Wanderer:
Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
02nd Dec 2015 19:00

Accountant is a focal hub for guidance.

DJKL wrote:

Glennzy wrote:

Over half accountants I see advertise their services, do so as accountants and business advisors yet very few in reality actually advise the business on matters away from the company tax return. I am not saying stepping into the shoes of the lawyer is what you should do. This guy needs a practical solution to this problem. Telling him to "[***] if nowt to do with you" is not a practical solution. Anybody who employs staff very quickly finds there is a lot of baggage that comes with it. The problem with relying on legal advice for every problem you have in the business is that unless you have a rich company they are not there 40 hours per week, and when staff matters go wrong is usually because of a knee jerk reaction to an incident within the work place. For instance if the guy in question turned up for work [***] and causing a commotion, 99% of business owners would go and deal with it whilst Tim would be too busy hiding under his desk calling his lawyer for what to do. If you employ staff you need to have a basic understanding of what comes with it, as accountants advising business you need a working knowledge of non tax issues so you can aid your client to find a solution. I have worked in both practice and industry so have had to develop skills outside of the core work I was recruited to do. I worked for company with a turnover over £20m with 1250 staff and we would spend less than £10k on lawyers per year as we knew how to run the business ourselves without consulting 3rd parties. Carlh offers a practical solution to the problem which is more in keeping with the response you would expect.

Sorry, it is one thing to operate one's own business as one likes, and take the consequences if due process/meetings etc have not been followed e.g. we have taken possession from defaulting tenants of commercial properties without due process/ notice etc, but that is our risk. It is quite another matter to professionally advise a client  within an area outside one's expertise. Employment law/interpretation is forever changing (I get e mail bulletins from our solicitors on employment law throughout the year), unless one does it for a living  it is a dangerous path to offer advice outwith one's area of competence.

Whilst you might be comfortable imparting such advice to your clients my comment to mine would be that employment law can be tricky,  even for large entities-ask Chelsea FC, and they really ought to consult a solicitor.

No one is saying what to do, but directing the client to someone how can help is the way to deal with the client.
If you are active in your business community you should have sufficient contacts to ask or call on to recommend the right person to sort it out.

The reason the client approaches the accountant for advice on non accounting matters is to get his guidance as to what to do as he is a focal
Point and is more likely to have professional contacts than a small business who has never had to deal with a lawyer before.

I had a client who had a licencing issue for a venue and asked me who the best guy was to do an appeal. I made half a dozen calls and got the name for the top guy in town and passed it on to the guy and he subsequently won the appeal and got the licence he wanted. Client very happy with result and lawyer very happy with the referral.

You could alternatively takes Tims stance and tell them to sling your hook and go and get a yellow pages, but I wouldn't.

There are a lot of legal points that gets posted on AWEB and the same few people hammer the posters as this is not a question an accountant can advise on.
If these people so Inscence you for daring to post on this site just don't waste you valuable time and reply to them.

The OP obviously thought he would get some sensible guidance from here that's why he posted the question.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Slim:
Red Leader
By Red Leader
02nd Dec 2015 19:16

my approach

"You really need to consult a solicitor who specialises in employment law or a HR consultant. It's easy to end up with a messy tribunal or law suit. Here are the contact details of a firm that has helped some of my clients in the past."

Thanks (1)
Replying to Slim:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
02nd Dec 2015 21:05

He got sensible guidance

Glennzy wrote:
DJKL wrote:

Glennzy wrote:

Over half accountants I see advertise their services, do so as accountants and business advisors yet very few in reality actually advise the business on matters away from the company tax return. I am not saying stepping into the shoes of the lawyer is what you should do. This guy needs a practical solution to this problem. Telling him to "[***] if nowt to do with you" is not a practical solution. Anybody who employs staff very quickly finds there is a lot of baggage that comes with it. The problem with relying on legal advice for every problem you have in the business is that unless you have a rich company they are not there 40 hours per week, and when staff matters go wrong is usually because of a knee jerk reaction to an incident within the work place. For instance if the guy in question turned up for work [***] and causing a commotion, 99% of business owners would go and deal with it whilst Tim would be too busy hiding under his desk calling his lawyer for what to do. If you employ staff you need to have a basic understanding of what comes with it, as accountants advising business you need a working knowledge of non tax issues so you can aid your client to find a solution. I have worked in both practice and industry so have had to develop skills outside of the core work I was recruited to do. I worked for company with a turnover over £20m with 1250 staff and we would spend less than £10k on lawyers per year as we knew how to run the business ourselves without consulting 3rd parties. Carlh offers a practical solution to the problem which is more in keeping with the response you would expect.

Sorry, it is one thing to operate one's own business as one likes, and take the consequences if due process/meetings etc have not been followed e.g. we have taken possession from defaulting tenants of commercial properties without due process/ notice etc, but that is our risk. It is quite another matter to professionally advise a client  within an area outside one's expertise. Employment law/interpretation is forever changing (I get e mail bulletins from our solicitors on employment law throughout the year), unless one does it for a living  it is a dangerous path to offer advice outwith one's area of competence.

Whilst you might be comfortable imparting such advice to your clients my comment to mine would be that employment law can be tricky,  even for large entities-ask Chelsea FC, and they really ought to consult a solicitor.

No one is saying what to do, but directing the client to someone how can help is the way to deal with the client. If you are active in your business community you should have sufficient contacts to ask or call on to recommend the right person to sort it out. The reason the client approaches the accountant for advice on non accounting matters is to get his guidance as to what to do as he is a focal Point and is more likely to have professional contacts than a small business who has never had to deal with a lawyer before. I had a client who had a licencing issue for a venue and asked me who the best guy was to do an appeal. I made half a dozen calls and got the name for the top guy in town and passed it on to the guy and he subsequently won the appeal and got the licence he wanted. Client very happy with result and lawyer very happy with the referral. You could alternatively takes Tims stance and tell them to sling your hook and go and get a yellow pages, but I wouldn't. There are a lot of legal points that gets posted on AWEB and the same few people hammer the posters as this is not a question an accountant can advise on. If these people so Inscence you for daring to post on this site just don't waste you valuable time and reply to them. The OP obviously thought he would get some sensible guidance from here that's why he posted the question.

Yes, and the sensible guidance was to consult a solicitor versed in employment law.

Thanks (1)
Replying to DJKL:
Stepurhan
By stepurhan
03rd Dec 2015 09:11

Overquoting

DJKL wrote:

Glennzy wrote:
DJKL wrote:

Glennzy wrote:

Over half accountants I see advertise their services, do so as accountants and business advisors yet very few in reality actually advise the business on matters away from the company tax return. I am not saying stepping into the shoes of the lawyer is what you should do. This guy needs a practical solution to this problem. Telling him to "[***] if nowt to do with you" is not a practical solution. Anybody who employs staff very quickly finds there is a lot of baggage that comes with it. The problem with relying on legal advice for every problem you have in the business is that unless you have a rich company they are not there 40 hours per week, and when staff matters go wrong is usually because of a knee jerk reaction to an incident within the work place. For instance if the guy in question turned up for work [***] and causing a commotion, 99% of business owners would go and deal with it whilst Tim would be too busy hiding under his desk calling his lawyer for what to do. If you employ staff you need to have a basic understanding of what comes with it, as accountants advising business you need a working knowledge of non tax issues so you can aid your client to find a solution. I have worked in both practice and industry so have had to develop skills outside of the core work I was recruited to do. I worked for company with a turnover over £20m with 1250 staff and we would spend less than £10k on lawyers per year as we knew how to run the business ourselves without consulting 3rd parties. Carlh offers a practical solution to the problem which is more in keeping with the response you would expect.

Sorry, it is one thing to operate one's own business as one likes, and take the consequences if due process/meetings etc have not been followed e.g. we have taken possession from defaulting tenants of commercial properties without due process/ notice etc, but that is our risk. It is quite another matter to professionally advise a client  within an area outside one's expertise. Employment law/interpretation is forever changing (I get e mail bulletins from our solicitors on employment law throughout the year), unless one does it for a living  it is a dangerous path to offer advice outwith one's area of competence.

Whilst you might be comfortable imparting such advice to your clients my comment to mine would be that employment law can be tricky,  even for large entities-ask Chelsea FC, and they really ought to consult a solicitor.

No one is saying what to do, but directing the client to someone how can help is the way to deal with the client. If you are active in your business community you should have sufficient contacts to ask or call on to recommend the right person to sort it out. The reason the client approaches the accountant for advice on non accounting matters is to get his guidance as to what to do as he is a focal Point and is more likely to have professional contacts than a small business who has never had to deal with a lawyer before. I had a client who had a licencing issue for a venue and asked me who the best guy was to do an appeal. I made half a dozen calls and got the name for the top guy in town and passed it on to the guy and he subsequently won the appeal and got the licence he wanted. Client very happy with result and lawyer very happy with the referral. You could alternatively takes Tims stance and tell them to sling your hook and go and get a yellow pages, but I wouldn't. There are a lot of legal points that gets posted on AWEB and the same few people hammer the posters as this is not a question an accountant can advise on. If these people so Inscence you for daring to post on this site just don't waste you valuable time and reply to them. The OP obviously thought he would get some sensible guidance from here that's why he posted the question.

Yes, and the sensible guidance was to consult a solicitor versed in employment law.

Is quoting huge blocks of text for single line answers really adding to the debate? Did you read all the above before getting to this comment I'm making now, or did you just skip to here?

@ Glennzy. This single line is just what everyone is saying anyway. That someone chose to do so in a flippant way, because they were posting in a forum rather than speaking to an actual client, doesn't change that.

Thanks (1)
By cheekychappy
02nd Dec 2015 18:17

If someone turned up [***] causing trouble, I would suspend them and get an IT person in to sort that side out if I wasn't capable of handling it myself. 

 

I would then follow the disciplinary procedures of my business. It seems the OP doesn't have these procedures, because if they did, they wouldn't be thinking anything. Especially along the lines of a redundancy that isn't redundancy. They would simply follow company procedures. 

 

With a lack of procedures, you are on dodgy ground, and any move you make could be potentially incriminating.

I wouldn't advise my client to do something that could potentially cause them issues further down the line. I think doing so in negligent. 

 

It's one thing to point people in the right direction and offer practical advice, it's another to give them firm advice outside your qualification and experience. 

Thanks (0)
Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
02nd Dec 2015 20:15

@red leader
Well said.

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By petersaxton
03rd Dec 2015 00:18

Glennzy, you are over reacting

I don't think Tim is saying what he would do. He was joking while pointing out that an accountant is not somebody who can solve the problem.

I am sure if a client asked him he would simply direct him to consult a solicitor specialising in employment law.

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By cheekychappy
03rd Dec 2015 09:20

Typical Accounting Web

21 comments (22 now) to reach an answer that was posted in the first few comments.

Thanks (0)
paddle steamer
By DJKL
03rd Dec 2015 10:05

@stephuran

"Is quoting huge blocks of text for single line answers really adding to the debate? Did you read all the above before getting to this comment I'm making now, or did you just skip to here?"

Skip, of course, but the purpose of quoting is to ensure that any reader reads the response in context  if they so wish.Of course I might ask what admonishing me for my posting approach added to the debate, but perhaps that might not be quite the done thing. 

Thanks (0)
By petersaxton
03rd Dec 2015 10:17

Quote relevant text

I would quote relevant text only if the full text is very long.

If the full text is not very long then I would highlight in bold the relevant part.

Thanks (0)
Euan's picture
By Euan MacLennan
03rd Dec 2015 10:21

My approach

When posting a response which quotes another comment, I delete all the parts of that comment which are not relevant to my response, thus ensuring that the context is clear without unnecessary obfuscation.

Thanks (5)
Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
03rd Dec 2015 12:24

Interesting

I am always keen to see and hear where other accountants see their role begin and end.

I say that because I have taking on a few clients recently who have been paying good fees to bigger firms for what was quoted as an all singing and dancing service. I see myself as a genuine accountant and business advisor, where as I have seen other firms who say this but actually only provide core compliance work, so where is the business advice?

A lot of people are now virtual FD's, but I see very little evidence of value adding to the business, that an in house director would do, they seem to be of a remote bookkeeping service that makes sure compliance requirements are met and little else.

When seeing or working with a new start up I will discuss and be asked questions on a whole host of things away from the core bookkeeping requirements of the business. 

I will discuss if they are adequately insured, if they are hiring staff have they got contracts in place, marketing etc. I do not hold certificates in any these subjects but from my experience I have sufficient practical knowledge to discuss them. I don't offer to write contracts for their staff but simply point out there is a need for them, I see this is part of my role of supporting the business. Most businesses don't have a lawyer engaged, but they do have an accountant, so I feel it is our duty to make people aware of some the extra considerations they need to take apart from their responsibilities to HMRC.

This case is not a good example as a lawyer is clearly needed, but I feel the stock answer of "call a lawyer" is not always the best way to proceed. A business owner needs to develop core knowledge of the things they deal with on a day to day basis. Using MCOL to recover small amounts of money is the way to go as oppose to using a lawyer etc. Most people who are HR professionals are not qualified lawyers they just have trained to understand the employment process.

From some of the responses you get on AWEB some accountants seem to take offence if they are asked something away from a tax query.

I remember from my former employment a guy who came in who was a bit old school who would do nothing outside his remit as a financial controller. The business owner asked him to fill in a form for something to do with their holiday home and he refused to do it as filling his employers details on a form was not finance related. 

In my day to day role I used to have to cover all things including maintaining records for immigration status, which was not finance related but it was connected to the payroll and if I didn't do it who would, again I am not a qualified immigration lawyer I just understand what documents are required to be kept and who to speak to if something is not right.

The second part of this query is how to safe guard the clients data and IT network which is not something a lawyer could deal with and a quicker solution to safe guard the business is needed.

 

 

 

Thanks (0)
By petersaxton
03rd Dec 2015 11:33

Exactly

"In my day to day role I used to have to cover all things including maintaining records for immigration status, which was not finance related but it was connected to the payroll and if I didn't do it who would, again I am not a qualified immigration lawyer I just understand what documents are required to be kept and who to speak to if something is not right."

It's related to payroll. There's no need for a qualified immigration lawyer.

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paddle steamer
By DJKL
03rd Dec 2015 11:39

@Glennzy

I think you are slightly tilting at a windmill here, I do not think you can really read into some of the posters objections here such an attitude that all we are comfortable with is compliance, our financial comfort zone. Certainly my objections to giving advice beyond pointing a client to a solicitor  were particular to the cited circumstances, not generic; in this particular case there was the issue of an extant dispute which ought to act as a warning sign.

If this had been a client where one was merely discussing best practice re employment contracts etc, I suspect most of us would have been more forthcoming, similarly re insurance and maybe even pointing them to someone /discussing rates appeals etc. Lots of us have practical experience running and operating a business, I am lucky if I spend much more than 2 out of 5 days a week actually doing accounting/tax functions in my day job, most of my time seems to be dealing with admin/legals/property sales/contracts etc.

But I do think that we have to be a bit careful when advice we offer is in response to a particular event, especially one with all the hallmarks of a dispute between parties.

In effect our advice / input needs to be appropriate to circumstance.

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avatar
By cparker87
03rd Dec 2015 11:51

I'm with Glennzy

"Go see a solicitor" is a [***] service. 

"Right, we have a real problem here. Let's discuss it and I can assist in finding a solicitor if you'd like." is much more helpful and my clients would expect it to be that way. In most cases we are the go-to professional for the client. 

Thanks (2)
By mrme89
03rd Dec 2015 11:57

"Go see a solicitor" is a

"Go see a solicitor" is a [***] service.

I agree. But I don't think many people would actually say that, and what they would say would be more in line with your last paragraph. I can see valuable contributions from both sides, but it has been drawn out unnecessarily.

 

Shake hand and play nice :)

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By jon_1984
03rd Dec 2015 12:22

Dare I Ask

what is your disaster recovery plan for your IT if it is that critical to Business? How would you cope with a server failure/email whilst said team member is on leave or if suddenly ill?

A well formulated plan would also give you access details to all the relevant areas to protect yourself in this situation give access to a technician who can assist from almost any IT support company....

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Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
03rd Dec 2015 15:43

Not Looking for a fight

Just keen to see what other peoples view is of what is covered by "business advice".

I have asked a few guys I know who are managers in 4 or 5 partner firms what they see as business advice and they just real off a list of accounting services.

I trained with few lads who went onto work in Big 4 companies and whilst brilliant at what they do, however I would say they lack real world experience.

This is apparently a problem for the Big 4 that have jumped on the small client and cloud software band wagon as they are struggling to deliver the face to face part of the service as they have not got the skills in house of dealing with small entrepeneur style clients, and are having to look to smaller firms and people with proven track records in business to recruit.

The answer to a client query "X has just happened what should I do" probably has the most value to him of anything he will ask.

 

 

 

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By ARP99
03rd Dec 2015 15:13

What is business advice

As an accountant, I would be comfortable advising on:

1) Compliance and accounts matters, internal organisation

2) Business performance, I have a handle on what is a reasonable cost, proportion of profit to spend on marketing, working capital management etc

3) Even staff matters team-building and departmental organisation, by reference to my own experience

4) Preparing a business for sale, selling a business, help guide guide business decisions that may impact a later sale.

5) Probably lots more that don't immediately come to mind

 

What I wouldnt touch - 

1) Employment legal matters

2) Property legal matters

They are both so complex that I cannot begin to advise on these matters. In your case, had you come in as a client, I'd have said "see a lawyer", I know lots of good ones and face to face with my client, who I knew personally, I'd give a couple of names. I'm not doing that online as I have no idea how genuine you are and whether you are a liability (i'm not suggesting you are or are you asking for names but I wouldnt refer blind).

I've got years of experience in Corporate Law from my time as an accountant, and even then I would probably always suggest a client goes to a lawyer for final drafts etc. I suspect I could produce perfectly acceptable Company Sale documents, Articles, SH Agreements etc, but I just wouldnt risk it.

In terms of the IT issue - as above, I'd get someone in ASAP to protect and back up before you even start the legal battle with the director, walls have ears and you need to cover your back before you even start.

 

I don't think it's reasonable to compare Big 4 experience and 4 partner firm experience in terms of who could offer better business advice. It's horses for courses. My friends still at Big 4 would probably struggle to advise on how to deal with a family split in a family run business, through lack of exposure, but could talk at length about the risks of moving into new international markets and the issues of listing your business. Big 4 guys lack experience of your real world position, but if you were on here because you couldnt decide between NASDAQ or AIM then they have a lot of real world experience.

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By tom123
03rd Dec 2015 21:25

If it doesn't relate to welding, pipe bending, or fabrication -

This is why I like my FD industry role. In my firm, if it doesn't relate to welding, pipe bending, sheet metal work (ie the money making stuff) then it tends to be my problem.

So that could be HR, vehicle fleet, insurance, banking. In fact, anything you can think of - today it was the cleaning contract and rates reviews.

(I like to think I am aware of the 'known unknowns' though, and we do have an HR contract to deal with the really tricky disputes though).

 

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