As if we haven't got enough to do at this time of year!

As if we haven't got enough to do at this time...

Didn't find your answer?

Obviously HMRC think that Accountants and payroll advisors have nothing to do at this time of year as I have just received  a non-filing notice for a client for the period ended 05.12.13.

As I use Moneysoft, I know that ALL reports have been filed and I have the submission reports to back this up.

I therefore call HMRC and after having to speak to a, next to useless, voice activated telephone response system, which doesn't recognise " I have received an RTI non filing notice" I eventually get to speak to a human being, only to be advised that ALL of the filing reports HAVE been received and that the Revenue appear to be sending these notices out to all and sundry for no apparent reason.

Not only have I just wasted half an hour of my time, but what happens next year when they start issuing incorrect penalties as well.

This system has got to change and I fail to see why reports can't be filed once a month on or before 5th of each month, to coincide with monthly PAYE liabilities, or the end of each Calendar month!

Replies (38)

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Euan's picture
By Euan MacLennan
18th Dec 2013 14:03

Presumably ...

... you didn't find this thread amongst the many others on this topic.

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By Moonbeam
18th Dec 2013 14:47

Thank you Euan

No, I didn't see that thread before and now I know to do absolutely nothing about an HMRC message that an FPS was filed late when I have proof it was filed on time.

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By Xcast
18th Dec 2013 15:02

Didn't see it either...

was probably too busy on the phone to HMRC.

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By User deleted
18th Dec 2013 15:50

Thank goodness

I was just looking here to see if I was the only one, having just got my third notice! 

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Time for change
By Time for change
18th Dec 2013 16:46

So, the usual

flawless software, exclusive to HMRC!

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By youngloch
18th Dec 2013 18:55

...the problem is

We too received a batch of these today and, fortunately, after checking the 2nd one of 10 and discovering that I do not need to call our payroll clerk into the office in the morning for a "word" I did a quick search on here and was not particularly surprised to find that we are all suffering. I guess the only issue that concerns me is what happens IF there is one that slips through the net.... if you don't check these notices you don't know. On the other hand it would be interesting to know if they actually issue them to people that do forget to file....but that's a different story I suppose!

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Replying to segovius:
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By Kazmc
19th Dec 2013 08:26

...

youngloch wrote:

We too received a batch of these today and, fortunately, after checking the 2nd one of 10 and discovering that I do not need to call our payroll clerk into the office in the morning for a "word" I did a quick search on here and was not particularly surprised to find that we are all suffering. I guess the only issue that concerns me is what happens IF there is one that slips through the net.... if you don't check these notices you don't know. On the other hand it would be interesting to know if they actually issue them to people that do forget to file....but that's a different story I suppose!

 

We have sent in late returns as the client have not given us timely information and, yes, they are being issued to these clients too.

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By BigBadWolf
19th Dec 2013 10:54

HMRC

We too had the same Issue so I called HMRC, and the person I spoke to insisted there was nothing wrong with their system and that it is infallible ... and insisted that if I had received notices that means that they haven't been filed and that my software must be faulty! I phoned again and spoke to someone else - who told be to ignore the notices! 

 

The joys of RTI and lunatics running the asylum!

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By martin.curtis
19th Dec 2013 13:42

If it's not HMRC and it's not Moneysoft - It might be us!

I have looked for a trend in the notices we have received and all of our employers who have weekly and monthly paid employees or just weekly paid employees are fine

So that for us leaves employers with monthly paid employees

Of these some have a paydate set up on Moneysoft as 25th of the month, some on last day of month and some have the last day of the tax month

We have been focusing on the last day in the tax month as being the deadline for submitting the RTI and have been running batches of FPS submissions between 1st and 5th of the month making sure all FPS reports were sent by 5th. But of course the deadline for FPS submission is on or before the paydate and so where the paydate in Moneysoft is 25th or 30th/31st then these reports are technically late.

Looking at the notices we have received all of them relate to an employer with a paydate of either 25th or 30th/31st

I am thinkimg about resetting the paydate in Moneysoft for all employers with only monthly paid staff to 5th of the month. 

I would be interested to hear if the late filing notices other Agents have received similarly relate to employers whose paydate in Moneysoft is one or more days before the FPS submission was made

 

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
Stepurhan
By stepurhan
19th Dec 2013 14:50

It's definitely you.

martin.curtis wrote:
I would be interested to hear if the late filing notices other Agents have received similarly relate to employers whose paydate in Moneysoft is one or more days before the FPS submission was made.
As Euan said, the requirement is to submit on or before the paydate. Is it really so hard to work out why you're getting late notices when you are explicitly telling HMRC you are filing AFTER the pay date?

While you are at it, when are the employees actually paid? That is the date you should be using for all payrolls. This has always been the case and is not a new RTI requirement. It is just RTI has highlighted all the people handling this incorrectly.

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Euan's picture
By Euan MacLennan
19th Dec 2013 14:08

It makes no sense

HMRC only knows two dates when it receives a FPS - today's date and the payroll date stated in the FPS.  If today's date is later than the payroll date, even HMRC's computer system can work out that the FPS is late.  Not "technically" late, but absolutely definitely late.

What makes no sense is why you delay filing the FPS when you must have processed the payroll before the payroll date, so that you can tell the clients how much to pay their employees.  Why on earth don't you file the FPS as part of running the payroll prior to the payroll date?

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By lh3f9764bg1g
28th Dec 2013 07:24

dilemma

We have received several notices for "late" filing where the submission was, definitely, made BEFORE the paydate. So . . . . . are we to be forced into a situation whereby we can't file late . . . . and we can't file early . . . . . . ?

Chris.

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Stepurhan
By stepurhan
28th Dec 2013 10:51

What date was on the filing?

You say you received late notices for submissions made before the paydate, but what date did you put on the filed report? If it wasn't the date the payment was to be made, but was some earlier date then, as has been pointed out more than once in this thread alone, that is the problem. You can file as early as you like before the paydate, so I don't understand why you think you can't.

If the date on the report you submitted was after the date of the submission, then you need to alert HMRC to another problem with their computer systems.

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Replying to eventgroup:
By alanfbrown
30th Dec 2013 11:30

What date was on the filing?

I Have exactly the same issue, if I file before the date paid =, then I seem to get a random 'Late Filing notice'.

For example pay day 25th Dec, Payroll run on 14th Dec (with pay day set as 25th Dec), FPS Submitted on the 14th Dec (Sage 50 Payroll), I get a 'Late Filing Notice' dated 14th Dec referring to the 5th Dec (and yes, the previous month was run on the 25th Nov and the FPS on 25th Nov).

This has happened to all of the clients I paid 'early' in December because of the Christmas break. The one client with the pay date of the 14th (don't ask me why!), which was processed and submitted on the 14th did not result in a notice!

It looks to me like a software bug which says 'if submission date = pay date the OK else Issue a Notice'

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Replying to jcace:
Euan's picture
By Euan MacLennan
31st Dec 2013 14:30

Probably more complicated

alanfbrown wrote:

It looks to me like a software bug which says 'if submission date = pay date the OK else Issue a Notice'

We haven't had any such problems with Moneysoft (yet), so perhaps the software test is a little more complicated:

If software = "Sage" And If Submission Date = Paydate, OK, else Late :-)

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By Stuart Cardwell
28th Dec 2013 10:58

Try filing an EPS foremployers where there is a nil return as all employees have left. Wont accept on or before 5th of the month, "data fails validation". Filing on 6th of the month generates a generic notification notice. Does any one have an address I can write to to complain as I cant find.

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By elaynam
28th Dec 2013 14:55

Early dates trigger late payment notice

Being Xmas and clients closed down for almost 2 weeks I did their payrolls early and filed at once, for 27th December and Jan 3rd, on the 23rd December.  I now have late filing notices on all those clients, so I can safely say it has nothing to do with Monthly pay but more to do with an incompetent system at HMRC.  Let us hope they get their facts right when it does matter or they are going to be swamped with appeals against incorrect penalty notices.

 

 

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By pauljohnston
28th Dec 2013 15:16

@euan

So for for standard payrolls with same monthly pay I would agree.  However with those payrolls with variants such as overtime etc  I feel as others do that the only way forward is to set the payment date in the software as late as possible ie 5th.

The original advice was that the employers had to agree the payroll before the RTi submission, just as the P35 had to be agreed in days past.  I just wonder how many are submitted by agents and indeed employers direct with out this agreement.

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Replying to alan.rolfe:
Euan's picture
By Euan MacLennan
28th Dec 2013 17:48

I am not sure what you are trying to say

pauljohnston wrote:

So for for standard payrolls with same monthly pay I would agree.  However with those payrolls with variants such as overtime etc  I feel as others do that the only way forward is to set the payment date in the software as late as possible ie 5th.

The original advice was that the employers had to agree the payroll before the RTi submission, just as the P35 had to be agreed in days past.  I just wonder how many are submitted by agents and indeed employers direct with out this agreement.

As Stepurhan and I keep pointing out, you cannot work out how much to pay the employees, particularly where there are variables such as overtime, without first running the payroll.  That has to be before the date of payment, so there can be no objection to dating the payroll on the actual date of payment.  Nothing is gained by setting the paydate to the 5th of the following month when you know it is not true.

And Yes - to comply with the RTI requirement to file on or before the date of payment, almost everybody running a payroll will file the FPS as part of the process of running the payroll (in advance of the paydate).  No - we don't ask our clients for their specific approval to file the RTI report for each payroll we run for them.  If we did, we would spend all our time chasing them for a response.  Instead, we put it in our letter of engagement that we will process their payroll each month in accordance with the PAYE requirements (including RTI reporting) based on the information they provide.  If they don't provide all the relevant information initially and come back with some overlooked overtime, starter or whatever, we will re-run that month's payroll if necessary, but not re-file the FPS - the correction is picked up automatically for RTI because the next month's FPS includes the (corrected) YTD figures.

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By Tosie
28th Dec 2013 20:37

my new client is getting.....

New client came to me to me two weeks ago  has not filed a single RTI . Knew he had to but did nothing about it . However HMRC have managed to calculate outstanding paye liabilities.Statements show both tax and nic due for each month.

This is a mystery to me and no doubt will involve long telephone calls  to sort out.

Punch line ,he has not received a single late filing notice.

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Replying to johnjenkins:
RLI
By lionofludesch
03rd Jan 2014 14:01

Not filed late

Tosie wrote:

New client came to me to me two weeks ago  has not filed a single RTI . Knew he had to but did nothing about it . However HMRC have managed to calculate outstanding paye liabilities.Statements show both tax and nic due for each month.

This is a mystery to me and no doubt will involve long telephone calls  to sort out.

Punch line ,he has not received a single late filing notice.

He won't have.  He hasn't filed late.  He hasn't filed at all.

He'll get a late filing notice when he files.  Or when the PAYE inspectors come round for a "chat".

Not that there are any consequences for the time being .......

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Replying to johnjenkins:
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By onicholson
03rd Jan 2014 14:40

Estimated liabilities

Tosie wrote:

New client came to me to me two weeks ago  has not filed a single RTI . Knew he had to but did nothing about it . However HMRC have managed to calculate outstanding paye liabilities.Statements show both tax and nic due for each month.

This is a mystery to me and no doubt will involve long telephone calls  to sort out.

If you don't file anything, HMRC may estimate your liabilities and expect you to pay those as normal. Your YTD figures will override their estimates when you do start filing for the client, though that won't change the liabilities for the old months.

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By Tosie
08th Jan 2014 22:23

please clarify onicholson

thank you for response would you mind clarifing what do you mean ,that the filing will not change liability.I assume the estimates will be deducted from overall liabilities .Sorry it is late I cannot get my head around it .many thanks 

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By pauljohnston
29th Dec 2013 10:38

@Euan

What I am trying to say is that our software sets the payroll payment date.  TO change it each month is hard work.  So we will be setting this default date to 31st  of the month so we are not seen to be in arrear in our RTi filing.

Clearly the RTi submission is made on the day that the payroll is produced. 

I note your comments re approval.  t am not sure of the legal position but will be advising my clients along the lines you suggest.

Thank you for your help

 

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Euan's picture
By Euan MacLennan
29th Dec 2013 11:04

Paydates

@Paul

I do not know what payroll software you use, but in Moneysoft it is easy to go into the monthly pay dates at the start of the tax year (or at any other time, but the point is that you only have to do it once) and change any default 31st dates to the preceding working day if that is what you want to do.  However, it is permitted under the PAYE regulations to state the 31st as the paydate, but pay on the preceding working day.  This has not changed under RTI.

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By pauljohnston
29th Dec 2013 19:35

@euan

Thanks

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Routemaster image
By tom123
30th Dec 2013 08:06

If I were the employee, I would be very confused.

I would be very confused as an employee if I didn't get a payslip dated the same day as the funds enter my bank account. That is surely my 'pay day'

In fact, until I saw all the RTI posts, it never ocurred to me that people would use any other date.

Surely any employer with all these overtime systems has to have a 'cut off' about a week prior to pay day to put all the information together?

 

That's my simplistic view of the world anyway.

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Replying to Tornado:
Euan's picture
By Euan MacLennan
30th Dec 2013 11:01

Not simplistic!

tom123 wrote:

I would be very confused as an employee if I didn't get a payslip dated the same day as the funds enter my bank account. That is surely my 'pay day'

In fact, until I saw all the RTI posts, it never ocurred to me that people would use any other date.

Surely any employer with all these overtime systems has to have a 'cut off' about a week prior to pay day to put all the information together?

That's my simplistic view of the world anyway.

It is the obvious way that it should always have been done.  I think the problem has been that some employers have dated the payroll on the 'cut-off' date, which has some logic, but has always been wrong under the PAYE regulations.

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By Tomazaan
02nd Jan 2014 12:29

Late filing notices and Moneysoft

Like many others I use Moneysoft and have been getting these notices.  There is a payment date set in Moneysoft (look in Tools, payment dates).  If HMRC receive the FPS after the payment date as per the program's payment date, you will get a late filing notification.  There should not be a problem if you are paying staff as you should be sending in your FPS at the correct time but I rarely pay staff (but more than once a year so I cannot be on an annual scheme).  I have been submitted my nil FPSs between the 5th and the 19th of the following month and hence this is "late" because it is after the payment date as per Moneysoft.  According to Moneysoft HMRC know about this being a problem for nil FPSs and it is hoped that it will be fixed but HMRC are quoting March 2015.

I am tempted to pay myself £10 a month so that I have to file a proper FPS and can do that during the month rather than wait until after the 5th of the following month to file a nil FPS and then get a late filing notification.

 

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Replying to mg200:
Euan's picture
By Euan MacLennan
02nd Jan 2014 12:49

Of course, it is late

Tomazaan wrote:

... I rarely pay staff (but more than once a year so I cannot be on an annual scheme).  I have been submitted my nil FPSs between the 5th and the 19th of the following month and hence this is "late" because it is after the payment date as per Moneysoft.

If there are no employees set up on the payroll, you can only file a nil EPS after the 5th of the following month, but if there are employees set up on the payroll, but who are not being paid in a particular month, you can file a nil FPS before the normal pay date.  If you file a nil FPS after the 5th, then of course, it is late.  Try filing an FPS today for your December non-payment.

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Replying to David Heaton:
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By geroge
02nd Jan 2014 20:43

Hi Euan, HMRC's notes seem to indicate if there are no payments in a month (not that there are no employees) then a EPS is required, not an FPS.

see http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/payerti/reporting/when-to-report.htm in section 'Regular payments to employees, extra payments and alterations'

 

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By pauljohnston
02nd Jan 2014 13:09

@Euan and @Tomazaan

I suspect the overall problem may be that many practioners do not view payroll as a profit centre, some even offer it for free and what "we" are trying to do is get all the payrolls finished at the same time.

Thus the filing dates of EPS and FPS will vary and this means it cant (as in the past) be done on the same day.  I am not sure of the way ahead but I guess like many I am considering stop doing payroll (so I dont get penalties after April 2014) or outsourcing it to a payroll bureau.

In the pub at Christmas I heard at least one employer saying that he is thinking of putting his one member of staff onto a "self-employed basis" because the risk of a PAYE inspection is less than the cost of running a weekly payroll and getting fined for late submissions.

I suppose the salutory tale for HMRC and Mr Duncan-Smith is that you need to consider all angles before changing a system..

 

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By Tomazaan
02nd Jan 2014 14:14

You learn something new every day

Thank you to Euan for putting me straight.  (Odd, though, that Moneysoft told me that I was not doing anything wrong.)  I thought no pay in any particular month = an EPS that had to be filed after the 5th.  I have filed December's FPS because I paid a 12 year old niece to do some filing over Christmas. I shall try filing January's submission (again this is likely to be nil) at the end of the month and see what happens.

I don't do payroll for any one else and I certainly don't regard my own payroll as a profit centre :) but I do think it is good to deal with unfamilar forms as it helps to keep me grounded and reminds me of how my clients feel when faced with a tax return.

Happy New Year everyone.

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By onicholson
03rd Jan 2014 10:17

Only with no FPS

The EPS for no payments is only needed if you haven't sent an FPS during the month. You can send an FPS with zero pay to meet the requirement of sending an FPS, which means you don't need the EPS.

Obviously, if you haven't any employees then the EPS is your only option but both are valid if you have employees who aren't being paid.

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By lh3f9764bg1g
03rd Jan 2014 13:25

maybe I'm wrong

Can one submit an FPS in Sage if there have been no employees processed in that month? I have a suspicion that one can't but maybe I'm wrong.

Chris.

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Euan's picture
By Euan MacLennan
03rd Jan 2014 13:51

Squaring the circle

Many of the problems with the operation of RTI have arisen from conflicting interpretations of the requirements between:

the RTI technical specifications, which are sometimes far less restrictive than people think (for example, inbuilt error correction by including YTD figures in successive FPSs)HMRC's guidance, which we know in other areas (company directors being required to file tax returns) is not legally correct or merely expresses HMRC's policy wishesthe payroll software providers' different approaches to incorporating the RTI requirements into their respective programs ( for example, Sage originally requiring even small payrolls to submit a separate EAS for payroll alignment before being able to submit any FPSs)

The inability to file a nil FPS where there are only unpaid employees on the payroll is evidently an error in the HMRC guidance and may be a restriction in Sage payroll software.

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By Garfsar
08th Jan 2014 21:30

Online CGT filing

Can readers assist with my CGT online filing problem.  My wife's broker churns her investments ruthlessly, and in a typical year he may undertake around 300 transactions on her behalf, with sales proceeds of around £70K, but he always make sure the taxable gain is below the taxable threshold.  When filing paper Tax Returns this wasn't a problem, as the usual CGT summary sheets were prepared, and the broker's schedules with all the other required information on them were then attached to the Return.

This year no paper Tax Return was received, which was not unexpected as she had no tax liability, so she was shocked to receive a letter last week from HMRC saying that since no paper Return had been received by them, her only option was to file online by the end of the month (is this just a ruse to get people filing online?). 

The question is therefore:-  is there any way my wife can attach scanned copies of her broker's schedules to her online Return, or must she transcribe all 300 transactions to the web-pages.  Or can she JUST file these broker's schedules by post.  You will appreciate that my marriage depends on finding a simple solution to the problem, as I assume it will repeat in subsequent years.

Is it also true that once you have filed a Return online, you can never go back to using a paper Return in subsequent years?

   

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Stepurhan
By stepurhan
09th Jan 2014 07:43

Start a new query

@Garsfar

This thread is about RTI. If you want to ask a question about an entirely different subject, you should create a new question, not hijack an irrelevant thread.

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