Penalty Appeal - Accidental Paper SA Return Submission

Penalty Appeal - Accidental Paper SA Return...

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A client who we have filed SA Returns for online for the past few years accidentally posted our file copy of the signed return to HMRC post 31 October 2012 which has generated a late filing penalty.

HMRC have dismissed our appeal (accident, historic pattern of filing online) stating that they must accept the first return submitted.

Has anyone else encountered this problem?

Replies (14)

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By Manchester_man
15th Mar 2013 16:45

I assume you also filed your electronic copy per 31/1? If so, then they should ignore the paper version and cancel the penalty.

I would appeal to high heaven in such circumstances!!

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By Manchester_man
15th Mar 2013 16:47

Ahh....
Edit - apologies, I read the post incorrectly.....

In your case I think hmrc are being pedantic and I would fight this tooth and nail.

For crying out loud, they got an online return filed before the deadline, what is their problem?

Take it to the top!!!!!

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By paras007
15th Mar 2013 16:55

Eh?

A paper return was filed after 31 October 2012 (before any electronic tax return was filed) so a penalty for £100 was received by the client and rightly so. I assume that any electronic tax return you tried to file afterwards was rejected by HMRC as they had already received one by paper.

What is your complaint here? It looks like the client does not have a leg to stand on.

I would let the client suffer the £100 rather than waste time/money on this pointless appeal.

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By LAD
15th Mar 2013 17:16

We did file an electronic return afterwards pre 31 Jan which was accepted by HMRC.

The client does accept the penalty and I do take your point about wasting further time but without starting a massive rant about HMRC this is appalling treatment and it does become a matter of principle regardless of the penalty, they can clearly see that it was sent to them in error as there is a historic pattern of online submission by us as the agent.

To be more specific, my question is that has anyone else experienced this before and have they been able to have the penalty removed?

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Replying to Red Leader:
By ShirleyM
15th Mar 2013 17:55

Get real!

LAD wrote:

.....  they can clearly see that it was sent to them in error as there is a historic pattern of online submission by us as the agent.

Do you really believe that?

Imagine the chaos if all paper returns were checked with the submitter before processing, just because previous returns had been filed electronically.

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By LAD
15th Mar 2013 18:10

I understand the penalty being issued initially, on appeal I would think they are able to look in closer detail.

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By Manchester_man
15th Mar 2013 19:00

I don't think some other posters are understanding the situation here.

The OP submitted his client's return, I'm time, electronically, before 31/1. He fulfilled the requirements. No problem.

The problem is that his client ALSO posted a paper return after the paper deadline which has triggered a penalty.

Surely the penalty system is in place to punish those who DONT file a paper return before 31/10 and who DON'T file an online return before 31/1.

If you miss the paper deadline, then you have no choice but to submit electronically before 31/1.

This was done, IN TIME!

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By petersaxton
15th Mar 2013 19:33

It seems obvious to me

"Surely the penalty system is in place to punish those who DONT file a paper return before 31/10 and who DON'T file an online return before 31/1."

Where do you get that from? I would think the penalty is for filing a paper return after the deadline. What is HMRC supposed to do? Wait until they see whether a return is filed electronically? Compare the two? Which is right?

If the client submits a paper return after the deadline for submitting paper returns it seems right to get a penalty. 

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The triggle is a distant cousin of the squonk (pictured)
By Triggle
15th Mar 2013 20:03

I thought that HMRC would only accept a paper return if it was a printed one that HMRC sent out or one downloaded from the HMRC website.

If you have submitted a paper tax return generated by a third party software product then HMRC should not have accepted it anyway.

 

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Replying to lionofludesch:
By petersaxton
15th Mar 2013 20:11

Why not?

Triggle wrote:

I thought that HMRC would only accept a paper return if it was a printed one that HMRC sent out or one downloaded from the HMRC website.

If you have submitted a paper tax return generated by a third party software product then HMRC should not have accepted it anyway.

Where is your justification for that statement? I have submitted many tax returns printed off from my Digita Personal Tax program and nobody at HMRC screamed when they saw them.

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The triggle is a distant cousin of the squonk (pictured)
By Triggle
15th Mar 2013 20:28

Peter

You're just lucky that you've chosen the right software...

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/carter/sa-identicalreturns.htm

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By petersaxton
15th Mar 2013 21:54

But

I don't think you'll find anybody who has had tax returns rejected for this reason.

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By Marion Hayes
17th Mar 2013 20:40

Later electronic submission

is not sufficient grounds for appeal against a late filing penalty. I have definitely read a tribunal decision to that effect but can't find it at the moment. 

I have to say that I do not understand how, unless you filed as an amended return, the electronic submission worked. I would look at my email confirmation to check the details and if it does say it was accepted I would try arguing that you could not have filed if the paper return had been processed correctly  

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By petersaxton
17th Mar 2013 21:02

Amended return

I thought you could only file an amended return the same way as the original return, ie. paper, HMRC software or third party software.

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