Practicing Qualifications

Practicing Qualifications

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Evening all,

I studied ACCA from 1999 - 2005.  I passed exams, which were converted when the syllabus changed in 2007 to conventional passes.  I therefore have conventional passes for all, except one, of the fundamentals with the professional level left to complete.

I ended up going on to have 3 children, so I left full time employment and began subcontracting for various accountancy firms in my area.  Eventually, I began accumulating my own bookkeeping clients, with some small self assessment tax returns.  I stopped working for other people, opened up a Limited Company, and began trading.  The business has been very successful and I provide a range of bookkeeping and accountancy services for just under 100 clients.  I decided I needed some form of qualification, but ACCA was a bit too much for me to take on with three small children.  I therefore went through and gained my AAT qualification to Level 4.

I plan to apply for a practicing certificate from AAT, but I would eventually like to become chartered.  I can not practice whilst being a member of ACCA, so it seems that the studies that I did for my ACCA exams are going to be left to waste.  I can't seem to find a way to become chartered without working for another chartered firm.  Is there any way to do this?  Is there an alternative qualification that could take me that far?

Any suggestions on how to progress my career and business, without leaving it would be very gratefully received.  Thank you so much in advance for any help or suggestions that you may be able to give me.

I also add that I am not looking to get an "easy route" or something for nothing.  I am happy to put in whatever it takes, but reluctant to sacrifice the business that I have already built up.

Replies (28)

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By mrme89
15th Jun 2014 10:22

If you're already an AAT member and are practising without a PC, you are in breach of their rules.

ACCA say that you can only do bookkeeping up to trial balance whilst being a student member. Should you want to pursue the qualification, you must give up your final accounts and tax clients. The other chartered bodies have similar rules.

You may be reluctant to sacrifice your business, but if you want chartered status, that is the sacrifice you would have to make.

You have clients already - what value do you think the ACCA qualification will add to your business?

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By MDK45
15th Jun 2014 11:58

Perhaps you could convert to cima or ifa? The practising rules are less stringent than acca. It sounds like you are in breach of regulation 8 for acca already. I presume you are registered for MLR And have PII?

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Replying to leshoward:
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By HUGH W DUNLOP
18th Jun 2014 19:34

The practising rules are less stringent than acca

Are you sure? ACCA rules don't appear to me to be too strict.

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By shell990shell
15th Jun 2014 13:02

I have only just qualified from AAT, so not yet a full member. I checked with them prior to commencing my studying and they posed no restriction on me practicing whilst studying AAT.

I feel that furthering my qualification can only serve to broaden my knowledge and therefore enable me to provide a better service to my clients. I do not feel that a chartered qualification will add anything to my current base of clients, but it may enable me to take on larger businesses (I turn away anything that I feel is beyond my capabilities).

However, if the sacrifice is my business, then I will stay with AAT.

Yes, I was in breach of ACCA regulation 8, which is why this has all come to light. I am no longer a student with them as I deregistered once I realised.

I am registered for ML with HMRC and have PII through a local broker.

Thanks again for your help and input. There's a lot to think about!

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By Philip Hoyle
15th Jun 2014 16:28

Think outside the box

The usual training pattern is clearly not open to you to become chartered due to your practising activities which you want to continue.  So think of alternatives.  The method that springs to mind is going into "partnership" with a similar sized chartered/certified accountant.  You'd have to check the ACCA rules, but I think you could be a part owner as long as the chartered/certified partner was in control - you'd have to check ownership percentages etc to see what was allowed.  I'm sure you could come up with some agreement where you merge your businesses.  If you, personally, aren't in control, i.e. you're an employee rather than a director, I don't think you're breaching ACCA rules and if your work is broadly supervised by the chartered/certified partner, they'll be able to sign off your experience record when you come to apply for your practising certificate.  Then once you've got your PC, you can choose whether to carry on in joint, equal partnership or whether you want to go back to being a sole trader.  Should be quite easy for a solicitor to draw up a suitable agreement so that you keep your clients whatever for the time being to protect yourself.

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By HomeLearningCollege
16th Jun 2014 11:53

Possible next steps

Firstly, congratulations on achieving as much as you have already and raising a family - these are remarkable feats in such a short span of time!

Unfortunately there are no short-cuts to becoming chartered in Britain and Ireland. All the main bodies; ICAEW, ACCA, ICAS, CAI, CIMA, CIPFA, will insist you take their examinations - although the work you've done so far is not wasted as you should be able to get exemptions. Check out their websites to see what exemptions are currently available, particularly against your AAT Qualifications as these are generally accepted as the industry standard.

Going for your Association of Accounting Technicians Member in Practice (MiP) would definitely be a good move as you can then start to use their facilities and network with other MiP's to develop your business. In fact, I'd suggest that getting AAT MiP status could well be enough for the meantime? Being chartered would be the 'jewel in the crown' but there's no urgency; have a good look at the chartered organisations and decide which one you want to join and study with - in your own time.

Best of luck!

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Replying to Wilson Philips:
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By shell990shell
19th Jun 2014 20:09

Thank you

HomeLearningCollege wrote:

Firstly, congratulations on achieving as much as you have already and raising a family - these are remarkable feats in such a short span of time!

Unfortunately there are no short-cuts to becoming chartered in Britain and Ireland. All the main bodies; ICAEW, ACCA, ICAS, CAI, CIMA, CIPFA, will insist you take their examinations - although the work you've done so far is not wasted as you should be able to get exemptions. Check out their websites to see what exemptions are currently available, particularly against your AAT Qualifications as these are generally accepted as the industry standard.

Going for your Association of Accounting Technicians Member in Practice (MiP) would definitely be a good move as you can then start to use their facilities and network with other MiP's to develop your business. In fact, I'd suggest that getting AAT MiP status could well be enough for the meantime? Being chartered would be the 'jewel in the crown' but there's no urgency; have a good look at the chartered organisations and decide which one you want to join and study with - in your own time.

Best of luck!

Thank you for your input, particularly your opening line :-)

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By Tomazaan
18th Jun 2014 11:53

Have you considered ATT?

If what you want is more knowledge rather than a chartered badge to your name, you should consider the ATT exams.  They should add to your tax knowledge and help you in that aspect of your work.

I don't know whether or not there are restrictions to students working for themselves at the same time as studying but I have found the CIOT (of which I am a member) much more small business orientated than the ICAEW (of which I was a member).  As the ATT is a sister organisation to the CIOT, I would expect them to be helpful as well.

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By dmmarler
18th Jun 2014 12:02

next step

If you look on CIMA's website (www.cimaglobal.com) you will see that CIMA students are not able to register as a member in practice.  If they do undertake practice work they must adhere to its Charter & Byelaws and also CIMA's code of ethics.  (See the section entitled MiPs, Who Should Register). This is similar to AAT.

CIMA's code of ethics is similar to that of AAT (as they are based on the IFAC code), both AAT and CIMA require you to be registered for money laundering and have PII, be competent for the work you undertake, and have letters of engagement for client work. You seem to b compliant in this respect.

As a matter of urgency you should register with AAT as a MiP, or you could have difficulty there.  After that I would suggest that the CIMA route would be quite straightforward for you.  All your AAT examination should be recognised, together with some of those you undertook for ACCA.  You will need to check the exemptions direct with CIMA.

Good luck!

 

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By chatman
18th Jun 2014 12:41

Do you think the term "chartered accountant" has any value?

I am a member of the ICAEW. I think the term "chartered accountant" has virtually no value any more and virtually none of your potential clients will even know what it means or meant.

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By raybackler
18th Jun 2014 14:09

CIMA Member in Practice

I despair at the closed shop arrangements that exist with all of the Chartered bodies.  As a CIMA Member in practice since 2006, it was difficult to get started.  I worked in a firm of Chartered Accountants, moved into industry before qualifying, and then completed my CIMA qualifications.

From 1976, when qualifying to then starting in my own practice in 2006, I accumulated vast amounts of experience.  I was short of up to date tax knowledge that I rapidly rectified, but not short of much else.  The effect of changing from industry to practice is that qualified accountants work in a junior role to get the required time under their belt to get the piece of paper.

One of the key points in obtaining a practicing certificate is to protect clients from the inexperienced.  I found the application process weak.  I have also found the Continuous Professional Development cycle weak.  None of it protects clients.

What the Chartered bodies should be doing is allowing their members to practice under a provisional arrangement.  This prevents the nonsenses noted above and would not harm clients at all.

As to the OP, there should be a route for the AAT in practice to become a Chartered Accountant without abandoning their existing business.  She is plainly not doing work beyond her level of expertise and some sort of provisional path would mean she could continue with her business.

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By Sloane Walker
18th Jun 2014 14:20

Will becoming ACA or ACCA help you?

Hi

I am AAT and ACCA, and a few years after qualifying I set up my own firm, which after 6 years is doing well.

I don't think that finishing the final level of ACCA will help you much with your practice.  I found 10 years ago that my final three papers had NOTHING to do with practice.  They were hard, but completely  irrelevant to the work I do now.

If you want more letters after your name, I would do ATT or CTA, that should help you a lot more with working in your own practice.  I find that very few of our client's know the difference between AAT and ACCA.  They just want you to be helpful knowledgeable and provide good business advice.

Looking back on ACCA, it focuses on 'global' issues, but not so much on UK practice.  I'm not saying I regret spending 3 years studying for ACCA, however, if my children want join the practice in the future I will get them to do AAT, and maybe ATT, but not ACCA. 

I would also encourage you to study books by entrepreneurs and business growth books.  This in the kind of advice clients really want and love.  They are far more excited about business growth and increasing profits than the exact workings of section xyz of the capital allowances legislation!

Just my opinion :o)

Kind regards

Dave

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Replying to legerman:
By JimH
18th Jun 2014 17:02

Ideas for good business reading?

Sloane Walker wrote:

I would also encourage you to study books by entrepreneurs and business growth books.  This in the kind of advice clients really want and love.  They are far more excited about business growth and increasing profits than the exact workings of section xyz of the capital allowances legislation!

Just my opinion :o)

Kind regards

Dave

 

Do you have recommendations for good books in this area?

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Replying to Tom 7000:
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By Sloane Walker
19th Jun 2014 16:22

Some great business books to read

Hi JimH

I am always reading business books, I don't enjoy the super heavyweight books.

The following are well worth consuming:

The One Minute Manager - Ken Blanchard a good book to read to help handle other people

Think and Grow rich - napoleon Hill......such a good book to read

Rich Dad Poor Dad - Robert Kiyosaki.  This book gives you a total different mindset about work and money

The E Myth Accountant Michael Gerber- great for building a business rather than just having a job where you are your own boss

The E Myth Revisited Michael Gerber

How to start and build a law practice - jay foonberg.....this is a bigger book, and although its designed for lawyers it can really help us accountants

I could go on but I'm too hot!  I hope you enjoy that list, and if anyone has any other good books that have helped them, please let me know, I'm always looking for the next one to read :o)

 

 

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Replying to Gone Sailing:
By JimH
20th Jun 2014 17:36

Thank you, Sloane
For some ideas

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By MDK45
18th Jun 2014 14:24

What does Chartered actually mean? As a fully paid up member of ACCA I am thinking I should know this!! Back in my day, chartered was ACA and certified was 'ACCA' but I never knew how these terms came about and what they represent.

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By chatman
02nd Jul 2014 10:52

The meaning of "chartered"

The actual meaning of "chartered" is not so important in this context, but the old terms did serve to distinguish between one sort of accountant and another. Now that everyone calls themselves chartered it is difficult for a member of the public to distinguish between the different types. How would you find a Certified Accountant now if you were looking for one?

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By Meerkat
18th Jun 2014 15:15

ATT

I would agree with Tomazaan. ATT is a very good option.

I qualified with the ACCA and then went on to do ATT to improve my tax knowledge. The exams are well structured for learning whilst you are working and the knowledge you gain will be far more use to you as a sole practitioner.

If you then wish to take it further you can do the CTA exams. You can then become a Chartered Tax Adviser.

You can be a student of both ATT and CioT whilst working for yourself and both of them are really supportive to members in small practices.

Feel free to PM me if you would like any more details

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By Philip Hoyle
18th Jun 2014 16:05

Clients don't know and don't care

Outside the profession, very few people care whether their accountant is "chartered" or not, probably don't care whether they're qualified or not.  The only time it ever crops up is when an accountant's report or certificate is needed for a mortgage, rental agreement, etc., and even then it seems that lenders and landlords are generally blind to the difference and accept anything that "looks official" such as a letterhead or company stamp.

Sadly, I don't think I'd be telling my son to qualify via ACCA or ACA if he showed an interest in accountancy.  As an ACCA member for over 25 years I find that very sad and hard to say!  I honestly think the ACCA has completely lost direction in it's global dominance goal and forgotten about it's core UK practising members.  Comparing the ACCA and ICPA is like chalk and cheese - the ICPA provides real practical and relevant support.  For my son, if he were so inclined to go into practice, I'd be suggesting AAT for the theory, exams and qualification and ICPA for their support, PI insurance, CPD, discounted software etc.

As for practising certificates and trainees in practice, ACCA just isn't moving with the times.  30 years ago, being on your own, especially unqualified was very rare, so the problem didn't arise of people practising whilst training.  Now, it's clearly a real problem because hardly a week goes by without someone else coming onto this or other forums with the same dilemma of wanting to continue with ACCA but restricted because of their own business.  It's easy to say that the rules were there before these people started, but that's a cop out.  Rules should be open to negotiation and change as circumstances and practices change.  

I'd be in favour of some kind of middle-ground membership where, say, a student member could "practice" and study at the same time, but with restrictions, such as a complete embargo of even mentioning to clients that they are ACCA members or that they've passed some ACCA exams - i.e. a complete ban on mentioning ACCA in person, on websites, etc.  Also, with the same requirements as practising members as regards PI insurance, CPD, etc., so basically regulated and monitored by the ACCA but not allowed to publicise their links or achievements with ACCA.  Then have a longer period of work experience, i.e. 2/3 years if supervised by a "chartered" accountant or say 5/7 years if "self certifying" your experience before you become a full member with a PC able to advertise the fact.  It's not rocket science to change the rules slightly to accommodate people coming into the profession in a slightly different route.

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By Cantona1
18th Jun 2014 16:26

Dump ACCA membership and save

Dump ACCA membership and save yourself over £200 per year. What do you get for £200? Crappy monthly edition. It takes less than 5 minutes to glance over the entire 70-80 pages.  It is filled with interviewing CEO and how aboard members spent money on foreign trips.

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Replying to Cheshire:
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By chatman
18th Jun 2014 16:30

Better than ICAEW

Cantona1 wrote:

Dump ACCA membership and save yourself over £200 per year. What do you get for £200? Crappy monthly edition. It takes less than 5 minutes to glance over the entire 70-80 pages.  It is filled with interviewing CEO and how aboard members spent money on foreign trips.

Sounds better and cheaper than the ICAEW

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By kirstiej
19th Jun 2014 07:44

"I'd be in favour of some

"I'd be in favour of some kind of middle-ground membership where, say, a student member could "practice" and study at the same time, but with restrictions, such as a complete embargo of even mentioning to clients that they are ACCA members or that they've passed some ACCA exams."

I assumed this was already the case?  (Not disputing this if it is true - just seems odd)

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By shell990shell
19th Jun 2014 20:05

What a great response, thank you!  I have to say that ATT, and eventually CTA really interests me.  I find taxation to be the knowledge that I use most.  There's some really interesting posts here though, and lots to think about!

I'm also very tempted into ICPA.  It seems they provide a good member support network for the smaller practice.

Funny that the chartered / certified debate came up.  When I was studying ACCA, I was always confused as to why the CIMA qualified were "chartered" but we ACCA students were "certified".  Seems the view has changed slightly since my day!

Whilst most of my clients are not IN THE LEAST bothered about my qualification, as long as provide them with the service they desire, I have been asked about 5 times "are you a chartered accountant though?".  Not that it seemed to put them off when I told them I wasn't!

 

 

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By cparker87
19th Jun 2014 22:13

I would....
1. Sign over my shares and directorship to spouse to prevent breach of AAT and ACCA rules and regs.
2. Finish exams with ACCA.
3. Apply for PC several years after qualifying.

Despite what the above individuals are saying, ACA and ACCA do produce excellent rounded individuals and business men and women. I'm proud I did the ACA and I don't think that I would give it up for the sake of £800 per year for PC and membership... At the end of the day, it has given me the opportunity (if my practice goes all wrong and I go for employment) to earn minimum £30k for the rest of my life .. In my view, that is great.

For the doubters, the above is possible. I took a route very similar, got my PC without 2 years PQE with ACA. It's all about the case you can put forward.

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Replying to Tim Vane:
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By shell990shell
19th Jun 2014 22:29

Interesting .....
So you're saying you got a practicing certificate without 2 years experience? How long ago was this and do you know if it is also possible with ACCA?

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Replying to Matrix:
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By cparker87
19th Jun 2014 22:43

.

shell990shell wrote:
So you're saying you got a practicing certificate without 2 years experience? How long ago was this and do you know if it is also possible with ACCA?

It was around two years ago. The PQE is to assure quality, your challenge is to communicate that you have the required level of quality. Let's face it, most post qual candidates don't do anything ground breaking in two years post qual that makes them better than a recently qual.

I think having done CTA in the two years after qual helped.

To clarify, I had 7 years experience at the time, but only 1 post qual ACA.

ACCA want your membership. They want your £800 for life.

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By kirstiej
20th Jun 2014 13:17

chartered just means you are a member of a body with a royal

charter.

You can be a chartered physiotherapist or a chartered engineer.  Therefore there are also chartered certified accountants and chartered management accountants.

I suppose chartered accountants are just called chartered accountants because they were the first and there was no need to differentiate them from anybody else.

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By HUGH W DUNLOP
21st Jun 2014 20:28

Chartered just means you are a member of a body with a royal - by kirstiej 18 hours 35 min ago.

But I find that most chartered bodies are like men with cars.'My car can go faster than yours' 'My car has a more powerful engine than yours' 'My car has a bigger boot than yours' And so on. Truth is we are all best to stick with what we are most comfortable with.I am a member of;The Institute of Chartered Secretaries and Administrators--Financial compliance, Specialist governance qualifications, Company Law and Compliance

 

Institute of Financial Accountants-Accounting, Business strategies,financial management.

 

International Association of Bookkeepers Varied tasks including     - Prepare for year-end tax and VAT returns-Keep on top of day-to-day cash flow-Efficiently run finances. This mix is is ideal for me as I am sure many others will find theirs suits them

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