Probate services

Probate services

Didn't find your answer?

did anyone get certified for this since it is not restricted now to the legal profession?

or do you know if it could be a nice fee earner?

or any thoughts on it?

Replies (18)

Please login or register to join the discussion.

avatar
By maxaca
25th Nov 2015 14:07

It's a good example of our professional bodies

stitching us up because even if you do the course, pay the fees and get accredited, you can still not deal with the oath.  There is a whole load of associated required extra compliance.  Also we are no longer allowed to engage in simple tax compliance such as completing the IHT400 now, (never mind the PA1) unless we are accredited!

Thanks (0)
avatar
By partner55
25th Nov 2015 14:28

Probate work

Maxaca is wrong.

You are still allowed to complete IHT forms.

SWAT's probate manual clearly states what you can and can't do without accreditation.

You need to be accredited to:

Charge for acting as an executor, and

Completion of or assistance in the completion of the Probate Application form PA1, or extraction of the grant on behalf of the personal representatives.

We can prepare the oath, but they still have to go to solicitor to swear the oath.

 

Thanks (1)
avatar
By SE_Confused
25th Nov 2015 15:03

Thanks partner55.

Did you go through with the exam?

Thanks (0)
avatar
By rorydowney
25th Nov 2015 16:49

UK200

I was at a discussion at the UK200 on this, it really seems a minefield that I would not go near. 

It really is a specialist subject

Thanks (0)
avatar
By cparker87
25th Nov 2015 17:35

Do TEP

If you're going to do the exam I'd suggest you just do TEP instead. Passing that removes the requirement to do the licencing exam for ICAEW. Fees to ICAEW are still a [***] though. 

Rorydowney is right, it is a specialist subject. However, so is taxation and having been involved in a couple of estate admins the quality of tax advice is worrying, esp. if there is a will trust. So, the way I see it, tax advisers moving into (non-contentious) probate is probably a good thing for the public in general... Going to take some convincing though. I think this is a long game. 

Thanks (0)
avatar
By maxaca
25th Nov 2015 18:03

@ partner 55
I have only the highest regard for SWAT but either their manual is incorrect or has been misinterpreted.
Advised directly by senior ICAEW representative and have just double checked the regulations on their website.
Accreditation covers preparation of any papers required in connection with the application for a grant. In addition to PA1 that will include either IHT205 or IHT400 so we are no longer able to charge for doing these unless we are accredited.
Obviously we can still do IHT100 etc.
Also have found that it upsets previously cordial relationships with solicitors who consider it an incursion and thus referrals for IHT advice cease

Thanks (0)
avatar
By SE_Confused
25th Nov 2015 19:43

thanks cparker - is it just one exam with STEP?

Thanks (0)
Replying to SXGuy:
avatar
By cparker87
26th Nov 2015 19:03

yea

neutru wrote:

thanks cparker - is it just one exam with STEP?

It's the Accountants and Tax Practitioners (ATP) course. It covers all four modules that you would do if you did full TEP course. Obviously examined in less detail.

Maxaca, are you sure about that? Preparing a tax return seems perfectly legitimate work for an ACA. Is that the case when you are contracted to the executor (or their representative)?

Thanks (0)
avatar
By maxaca
26th Nov 2015 22:49

@cparker87
Agree with you completely!
Preparing a tax return would seem to be within our competency; however, hence my comment about stitching us up; much in the same way as the RICS did with their members about the house buyers report!

Thanks (0)
Replying to I'msorryIhaven'taclue:
avatar
By cparker87
27th Nov 2015 08:51

I saw that

maxaca wrote:
Agree with you completely! Preparing a tax return would seem to be within our competency; however, hence my comment about stitching us up; much in the same way as the RICS did with their members about the house buyers report!

 

Yes I saw that, sorry if it wasn't clear. The question I was trying to ask is if there was a distinction between preparing the IHT forms having taken the office of executor on behalf of a family or completing the IHT forms where an executor has contracted you to do solely that (and therefore not touch the PA1/Grant etc)?

Thanks (0)
avatar
By maxaca
27th Nov 2015 09:52

according to ICAEW & SWAT the strict answer is no

if you want to charge for your services, unless you are accredited, and your PII would probably not cover you either.

Pragmatically you could probably advise the executor what they might want to put on the IHT return so long as you did not (or were not seen to) complete the form yourself (not being accredited).

Dinner and dogs are the words that come to mind although not necessarily in that order!

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Justin Bryant
27th Nov 2015 11:18

There is nothing

Juicy about probate work in my view. The risks of [***] up & getting sued are big and the margins are small.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Calculatorboy:
avatar
By cparker87
27th Nov 2015 11:49

Well

Justin Bryant wrote:

Juicy about probate work in my view. The risks of [***] up & getting sued are big and the margins are small.

2.5% on an estate that only has a home in to deal with and some cash sounds like plenty margin.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Andp
27th Nov 2015 12:10

"Advised directly by senior

"Advised directly by senior ICAEW representative and have just double checked the regulations on their website".

I am no way doubting what you say BUT   either there are mistakes in the regulations or they need to be re drafted.

It just makes no sense at all.   A Chartered accountant not allowed to prepare IHT returns.

 

Any ICAEW students out there studying for tax exams containing IHT ?

 

 

The situation needs more clarity from several sources before one rushes out taking TEP courses or walking away from IHT returns.

 

 

Thanks (0)
By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
27th Nov 2015 12:10

.

I am quite interested in this area as we do quite a lot of estate accounts for a probate solicitor so have a 'head start' in terms of knowledge. 

Generally the solicitors admin is rubbish and they really dawdle along, but there is a lot of leg work involved in winding up even a small estate in terms of clearing the house, selling the chattels for a decent price.  Its certainly not straight forward work and may well need to people "on the ground" in the deceased's property riffling through their paperwork if the relatives wont do it. 

Barriers to entry are quite high, but that is really a plus from my point of view. Its not something you would do "on the side" it would have to be a large chunk of your business, something like 50% for a sole prac or one partner in a larger firm. 

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Justin Bryant
27th Nov 2015 12:15

If

You can get away with charging such a high margin then the very best of luck to you. The fact is that you can get this done in high street law firms for a few £100s (like the small margins in conveyancing work too that can be done for a few £100s, although some law firms get away with high margins for people who can't be bothered to shop around).

Thanks (0)
avatar
By maxaca
27th Nov 2015 12:19

Estate administration and preparation of Estate accounts

including preparation and submission of SA900 tax returns (or amendments to already submitted IHT400s) is allowed - this is not reserved - only any paperwork connected with applying for and obtaining the grant is reserved....

Thanks (0)
avatar
By mely
27th Nov 2015 12:25

PA1 and IHT forms

I've just looked at ICAEW's guidance, unaccredited firms can still prepare these forms they just can't sign and submit them autonomously.

 

Thanks (0)