RTI

RTI

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I run a weekly payroll.  Payday is normally Wednesday and I have run and submitted the payroll for Weds 18th Dec.  However, due to Xmas the next payment of wages is going to be Friday 20th Dec and this will be for 2 weeks.  The software does not allow a change of paydate so how can I process these 2 weeks - do I just submit for 25th and 1st Jan even though the payment has already been made or is there a way of getting around this/  I use moneysoft payroll.

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By carol_ine
19th Dec 2013 15:30

Is there anybody out there?

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By landscaper
19th Dec 2013 15:34

Submit now

Submit the FPS "on or before" the payroll date so why not submit today or tomorrow?  If you are paying early you must submit early.

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By carol_ine
19th Dec 2013 15:37

Yes I can do that but does it matter that the payslips are dated 25th Dec and 1st January?

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Replying to Smalltalk:
Euan's picture
By Euan MacLennan
19th Dec 2013 16:05

If it worries you ...

carol_ine wrote:

Yes I can do that but does it matter that the payslips are dated 25th Dec and 1st January?

Under the PAYE rules, if the normal pay day falls on a non-banking day, you can actually pay on the previous or following working day without changing anything.  However, that won't help you in this case.  In Moneysoft, you can change the date of weekly payrolls by changing the day of the week, so why not change it to Friday, 27th Dec and 3rd Jan, which are working days?  As it is in the same tax week, it should not affect the calculation of PAYE, but you should check it is the same before and after the change.  Then, change it back to Wednesday in January.

However, that is not the real problem.  You are proposing to pay 3 weeks of wages in the same week which would normally drive up the PAYE tax and NIC.  Or were you thinking of pretending that the 20th December pay day is actually two payrolls for the two following weeks and calculating PAYE accordingly?  If you are prepared to do that, what is your problem with having payrolls dated 25th Dec and 1st Jan?

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Replying to leshoward:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
20th Dec 2013 11:39

Is this not just a software issue?

Euan MacLennan wrote:

carol_ine wrote:

Yes I can do that but does it matter that the payslips are dated 25th Dec and 1st January?

Under the PAYE rules, if the normal pay day falls on a non-banking day, you can actually pay on the previous or following working day without changing anything.  However, that won't help you in this case.  In Moneysoft, you can change the date of weekly payrolls by changing the day of the week, so why not change it to Friday, 27th Dec and 3rd Jan, which are working days?  As it is in the same tax week, it should not affect the calculation of PAYE, but you should check it is the same before and after the change.  Then, change it back to Wednesday in January.

However, that is not the real problem.  You are proposing to pay 3 weeks of wages in the same week which would normally drive up the PAYE tax and NIC.  Or were you thinking of pretending that the 20th December pay day is actually two payrolls for the two following weeks and calculating PAYE accordingly?  If you are prepared to do that, what is your problem with having payrolls dated 25th Dec and 1st Jan?

Regarding paying multiple weeks in the same week, the Iris software (PAYE Master Bureau)  that I use has no issue with this as long as you flag  the pay as covering the forward weeks and insert the number of weeks that are covered in the appropriate box. The software then calculates both tax and NI over the requisite number of weeks. I also use this approach when I take my summer holiday and the software again "averages" the pay for tax/NI.

I ran and submitted our weekly payroll  yesterday which covered w/e 20/12, 27/12 and 3/1 ,and made payment yesterday (normal date Friday), as I have no intention of being around after the 24th December and was somewhat worried that my cheque signatories might have issues getting in today given the snow that was falling north of the Forth (turns out was not an issue)

Presumably the problem is Moneysoft does not have this functionality?

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Stepurhan
By stepurhan
19th Dec 2013 15:44

Change your software

The payslip date should be the same as the pay date. If your software won't let you change the dates, then you need software that will.

You also need to consider that, whilst this may be urgent to you, it isn't to anyone else here. Considering that, 4 hours isn't very long to wait for an answer before showing your impatience. If you really need answers in a hurry, you should probably consider getting some paid for support so you can guarantee getting answers in the timescale you desire.

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By mumpin
19th Dec 2013 15:52

Cheerleaders

I suspect stepurhan and Euan are on modest HMRC retainers to puff the marvelous RTI malarky.

They both get ratty when the hoi-polloi point out what a shambles it is...

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By carol_ine
19th Dec 2013 16:13

So what would you do?

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Euan's picture
By Euan MacLennan
20th Dec 2013 10:45

What would I do?
I wouldn't have started from here, as someone once said.  Weekly payrolls are a nightmare.  We refuse to do any.  If clients insist on weekly payrolls, suggest that they do it themselves using Moneysoft, on which you can offer to train them.  I have assumed that you are an accountant, but perhaps not.  If you are the employer, I would change your staff onto monthly payroll, giving loans of 3 weeks net pay to be paid back over 6 months to ease the employees' cash flow.  This would cost you nothing in the short term, but will improve your cash flowIf I was thinking of bending the PAYE rules, I wouldn't have blabbed about it on a public forum.You might think the answer is to run two payrolls dated 25th Dec and 1st Jan (or 27th Dec and £rd Jan, if you change the pay day to Friday temporarily) and make sure you file the FPS reports today, being the date of payment - but I couldn't possibly comment!

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By peterdell
20th Dec 2013 13:50

Mumpin has got it right. You can feel the atmosphere building already that is why no one else is posting.

 

Work Christmas day and stop moaning!

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Replying to lionofludesch:
Stepurhan
By stepurhan
20th Dec 2013 14:31

Or think ahead

peterdell wrote:
Mumpin has got it right. You can feel the atmosphere building already that is why no one else is posting.

Work Christmas day and stop moaning!

You have to do the calculations before payment, so you have the information for the reports before payment. What is the problem?

As Euan has already said, at least we are trying to answer the OP's query. If those answers involve pointing out correct PAYE processes that should have been in place well before RTI came in, then so be it. If any atmosphere is building, then I can't help thinking unjustified accusations of two people who have made plenty of equally reasoned posts against HMRC in their time here is more likely to be the cause.

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By peterdell
20th Dec 2013 14:49

stepurhan

If your client rings you on Christmas day and tells you he has made a bonus payment of £500 to one of his employees then legally you are required to file on Christmas day. End of discussion.

I appreciate you don't have enough clients to have this situation but that's by and by.

And one other point the Revenue actually agree with this and gave us a two year extension lest you should forget because they recognise this needs looking at.

It is your continual bantering against the rest of the community and HMRC that causes the problems.

Stop making it personal because it is pathetic.

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Replying to TomMcClelland:
Stepurhan
By stepurhan
20th Dec 2013 16:42

More ridiculous situations. Net pay question anyone?

peterdell wrote:
If your client rings you on Christmas day and tells you he has made a bonus payment of £500 to one of his employees then legally you are required to file on Christmas day. End of discussion.
If you have clients that would really do something so unreasonable, you should be sacking them.

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I appreciate you don't have enough clients to have this situation but that's by and by.
This is another wild assumption with no solid basis. I believe in doing things the right way and getting my clients to do the same. Working for clients is as much about not giving HMRC an excuse to come down on them hard as it is about saving them as much tax as legally possible.

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It is your continual bantering against the rest of the community and HMRC that causes the problems.
So if the community was in favour of not paying tax at all (and I could see how it could be) it would be "causing problems" to point out that was wrong? Being in the majority is not the same as being right.

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Stop making it personal because it is pathetic.
As someone who supported the unsubstantiated and unjustified assertion that two named individuals were HMRC stooges, a call to not make things personal is a bit hypocritical don't you think? 

Buit tell you what, if you can give a sensible real world answer to a question I have raised again and again on RTI threads, I'll consider changing my views. A report must be filed before making a payment to employees. To know what payments to make to employees you have to work out their net pay. If you don't do that, then you risk over or underpaying your employees, which can itself have serious consequences. Since you have had to work out the net pay in advance of making payment, why is it so hard to submit a report including the information you've used to work out that net pay?

To date, only one person on these forums has even tried seriously addressing this question. That person is my alleged co-conspirator, Euan.

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By peterdell
20th Dec 2013 17:13

stepurhan

I have just given you a reason and your response is "sack your client" Really! Clients who are friends and family, ringing you up to wish you a happy Christmas. My response envisaged by you "You didn't tell you had paid so and so £500 Your sacked! and I don't want your £2k fees either"

It is not worth my time debating, better things to do, and if that's your view, that's your view. 

The Revenue have recognised the problem and it is only you and Euan who are unable to grasp this. But that's okay we live in a democracy.

But it is right that there are threads on AWeb  point out that for the vast majority of small firms the system as it stands is bonkers and needs amending. Not back to the old file at the year end but a bit of flexibility so that if you file two minutes after you have received payroll details (see midnight example) that your not threatened with a penalty.

And I sincerely wish you and every else at AWeb who have been supportive throughout the year a very joyful Christmas and happiness throughout the coming year.

 

 

 

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Replying to SXGuy:
Stepurhan
By stepurhan
21st Dec 2013 10:24

The Christmas client

peterdell wrote:
I have just given you a reason and your response is "sack your client" Really! Clients who are friends and family, ringing you up to wish you a happy Christmas. My response envisaged by you "You didn't tell you had paid so and so £500 Your sacked! and I don't want your £2k fees either"
The scenario as you proposed it made it sound like he had phoned up on Christmas day, expecting you to deal with the PAYE in respect of that £500. If a client phones me up expecting me to work on Christmas day, then that client is up for sacking. If the client isn't expecting you to do anything about it that day, why are they phoning you up on Christmas day at all? Why are they not phoning you when your office is open again after Christmas? Yes, that would mean they were now facing a fine for not having a report filed prior to payment, but that is down to client education, not a client being unreasonable. The fine arises because they did something that you should have advised them against. It's no different from a VAT client accruing surcharges because they constantly pay on the 15th instead of the 7th as you have advised.

But let's take the client phoning up on Christmas day to pre-RTI times. Client phones up on Christmas day. He's just watched the Queen's speech and is inspired to pay his employees a bonus that same day. He has five employees and he has worked out he has available cash for a total bonus of £5,000. He is clued up enough to know there would be tax and NIC, so he can't just give them £1,000 each. He needs you to calculate the net pay for him. He'd also like you to drop payslips round so he can give his employees the happy news on the day. Even if you don't have to file an RTI report, would acquiescing to this request not involve you working on Christmas day? If you're going to do that, how hard is it to just press the button to submit an RTI report at the same time?

By the way, the Revenue have recognised a problem with THE COMPUTER SYSTEMS USED FOR RTI. Not RTI itself. If you'd read the quote from another thread I posted further up, you'd see I'm just as much in favour of postponing penalties on this basis as anyone else.

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By mumpin
20th Dec 2013 19:14

Lets stand shoulder to shoulder...

What about setting up one of those "Open Government" petitions along the lines of:

 

We, the undersigned believe that the HMRC RTI system should be modified to stipulate one monthly submission by each Paye scheme, on or before the 5th of the month, detailing all payments and deductions made under that Paye scheme in the preceding month.

 

The above statement to be henceforth known as "The Aweb Coda".

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By Steviebaby
22nd Dec 2013 11:01

Sacking clients

I did sack a client years ago (mid 1990's) because they telephoned me on Christmas Day and it wasn't over an accounting matter either.  Client was a Residential Home.

I had just sat down with family to open presents (about 11am) and telephone rings. Client on phone asking what to do as Christmas tree lights had gone out.  Advised to either check all lights were working, and had not come loose or othat one had failed breaking the circuit, or check the fuse in the wall plug or check the main fusebox to see if that had 'tripped'.  If that didn't work, contact an electrician.  I then asked 'why did you call me on Christmas Day and not a maintenance person?'  Answer given, and I am not making this up, was 'Well, you are the first name in our phone book - A for Accountant!'

First I was dumbstruck and nearly laughed, but then I started to get mad at the stupidity of the client - what next would they do: telephone the local hairdresser if a resident became ill?.  Needless to say I hand delivered my letter of dis-engagement on Boxing day.

 

 

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By DavidGilligan
22nd Dec 2013 19:15

RTI

I have not read every word of every thread on this topic as I don't see a problem.

For one client, for the first time, I am running a weekly and monthly payroll in tandem using Moneysoft.

It has not really been a problem, it all seems to work fine.

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By Sandnickel
23rd Dec 2013 08:57

@peterdell

No disrespect intended but I laughed when I read your post. My answer to the client who rang on Christmas Day (assuming I answered the phone) would be: "I'm not working today, it's Christmas. We've discussed RTI before, you will now get a late filing notice because you didn't tell me on or before payment. If you do something similar next year it is likely that you will get fined. If you intend to pay bonuses you must tell me before you make the payment so I can calculate the correct tax & NI"

Simples.

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