SA302 for a profesional poker player? No taxable income...

SA302 for a profesional poker player? No...

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The client is a professional online poker player, there is no tax paid on his winnings. Is it possible to get an SA302 for a mortgage application when income is not taxable? If yes, how?

He is technically self-employed due to having done a small amount of website design on the side, but this income is negligible. He submitted SA returns for the previous financial year, but has never shared his poker income with HMRC.

Replies (18)

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By Wanderer
23rd Jul 2015 12:50

Ignoring the poker income.

SA302s only show his taxable income (when it is entered onto an SA return) so getting them wouldn't help get a mortgage.

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Portia profile image
By Portia Nina Levin
23rd Jul 2015 12:52

Is his poker income
Just winnings? Or is there prize money too?

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Portia profile image
By Portia Nina Levin
23rd Jul 2015 13:21

And
What do they play poker with. Do not say cards!

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Replying to Weq1:
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By MoneyMartin
23rd Jul 2015 19:45

Poker Income

Portia Nina Levin wrote:
What do they play poker with. Do not say cards!

I have no idea what you are suggesting, but I don't think it's helpful...?

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By Portia Nina Levin
24th Jul 2015 13:51

I am simply suggesting
That your client might have had taxable income after all. If the competitions are not played with real money, and all that is at stake is the entrance fee, then the prize money may well be taxable income.

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Replying to Paul Crowley:
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By MoneyMartin
24th Jul 2015 14:12

Thank you

Portia Nina Levin wrote:
That your client might have had taxable income after all. If the competitions are not played with real money, and all that is at stake is the entrance fee, then the prize money may well be taxable income.

For the reply, but that is not the case. The income is not taxable.

Do you know if it is possible to get an SA302 for a mortgage application when income is not taxable?

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By Portia Nina Levin
24th Jul 2015 14:41

What is the frigging point?

MoneyMartin wrote:

Portia Nina Levin wrote:
That your client might have had taxable income after all. If the competitions are not played with real money, and all that is at stake is the entrance fee, then the prize money may well be taxable income.

For the reply, but that is not the case. The income is not taxable.

Do you know if it is possible to get an SA302 for a mortgage application when income is not taxable?

You can get one, but it will just show no income. Do you think HMRC have psychic powers? It will only show the taxable income that has been reported (which may not be all the taxable income).

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Replying to Paul Crowley:
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By Lee11_1989
24th Jul 2015 14:18

Agree

Portia Nina Levin wrote:
That your client might have had taxable income after all. If the competitions are not played with real money, and all that is at stake is the entrance fee, then the prize money may well be taxable income.

Agree with Portia on this. But as you seem confident that it isn't taxable, I assume that your client plays for cash and risks losing anything that he stakes.

To answer your actual question, I don't see that it would be possible to obtain an SA302, as it will only show taxable income that has been declared to HMRC.

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By andy.partridge
24th Jul 2015 15:21

@ Martin

Am I right in thinking you are an IFA and not an accountant/tax specialist?

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By jon_griffey
24th Jul 2015 15:45

Responsible lending

Are there really lenders out there who will give mortgages on the back of the applicant's income from playing poker?

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By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
24th Jul 2015 15:54

@Jon, I have a client who has been gambling, sorry trading, on futures markets within a limited company who has just obtained a loan on the back of two years of profits.

I don't think they quite understood what 'trade' the business is in. Seems not much different to the poker player to me. 

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By Banzai
24th Jul 2015 16:27

Poker

the poker player is definitely not taxable on his winnings, usually the stake money of all players is aggregated and split between those that "cash" after a rake for the betting company, its still a game of chance even for the professional players and the winnings are not taxable. If you are paid an appearance fee or have sponsorship income of some sort then this can be trading income but not the winnings. 

 

As for an SA302 you have no chance.

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By mrme89
24th Jul 2015 16:50

@Banzai

If you are given an appearance fee, and subsequently win anything from that tournament, I believe the 'winnings' are deemed to be an extension of the appearance and is therefore taxable. 

 

I'm sure Portia will shoot me down epically if I'm wrong. 

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Replying to Rweaver:
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By Lee11_1989
24th Jul 2015 16:44

Competition winnings

mrme89 wrote:

If you are given an appearance fee, and subsequently win anything from that tournament, I believe the 'winnings' are deemed to be an extension of the appearance and is therefore taxable. 

 

I'm sure Portia will shoot me down epically if I'm wrong. 

That's how I see it. If the income is in the form of competition winnings and not directly gambling, it may be taxable. Or so I believe.

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By Roland195
24th Jul 2015 16:32

Taxable Income

Your client could always voluntarily return the full amount as taxable income which would then appear on an SA302 with the minor disadvantage of now having to pay tax on it.

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By petestar1969
24th Jul 2015 16:48

Hmm

I believe it works like this....

 

If you enter a poker tournament and end up winning a prize that income less associated costs would be taxable. No different from entering a snooker or darts or golf tournament.

 

Anything else would be non-taxable otherwise HMRC would have to recognise and give relief for losses.

 

As already mentioned the SA302 is just a summary of what's on a tax return. So if the poker income is not on the return the SA302 will have [***] all on it.

 

 

 

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Portia profile image
By Portia Nina Levin
24th Jul 2015 17:17

Gambling winnings are not taxable
Entering competitions professionally and winning prizes is taxable, unless you are racing horses, which HMRC refuse to tax. I have no idea how poker competitions work though. I am long past all my flushes.

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By michael7
24th Jul 2015 17:22

BIM22015 - BIM22017

Quote from BIM22017:||Some ‘professional gamblers’ do carry on a trade, for example, where they receive appearance money for appearing on television programmes. They are providing a service to a customer (the television production company) for reward. Whether their gambling winnings are proceeds of that trade would depend upon the facts.

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