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I need to correct the opening balances in the clients accounts following the completion of ye 31/03/13.  The client must have already run the year end I think.  I have posted the journals dated 31/03/13 but the retained profit hasn't updated.  I know nothing about how Sage works.  Any ideas?  Can you re-run the year end?

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By johngroganjga
05th Mar 2014 10:14

I am no expert in Sage, but I would have thought that if the year end has already been run you would post the adjustments as at 1 April 2013 (i.e. in the new (live) year and not in the old (closed) year).

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By FoxAccountancyServices
05th Mar 2014 10:17

Hope this helps

I would be inclined to reverse the 31.03.13 journal,  and re-post it, dated 01.04.13

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By thomas
05th Mar 2014 10:22

But surely then the comparatives will be wrong?  

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By Sandnickel
05th Mar 2014 10:24

What accounts have you posted to?

I disagree with the above comments, I would post opening balance adjustments as 31.03.13 so that your b/fwd TB agrees with the final accounts. I'm not sure how/what you have posted though because the balancing entry would be to your profit and loss account to make this balance correct e.g. depreciation cr 0021 dr 3200 to make your year end depreciation adjustment. I wouldn't recommend attempting to re-run the year end.

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By Sandnickel
05th Mar 2014 10:28

Year End

Just another thought, are you sure the year end has been run? The start of the financial year shows at the bottom right of the screen, this should say April 2013. (Apologies if this is obvious but you said you didn't know how SAGE works, maybe it hasn't been run?)

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By andy.partridge
05th Mar 2014 10:29

I disagree too

The horse has bolted. We post P&L items to reserves dated at the year-end and concentrate on ensuring the balance sheet accounts are correct.

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By thomas
05th Mar 2014 10:29

I've posted say dr accounting fees, cr accrual, dr depn expense, cr 0021

 

When I look for a TB, the only option it gives me is to run the bfwd balances.  This TB shows the 31/03/13 balance sheet entries, the retained profit and P&L accounts to which I have posted journals.  The retained profit hasn't updated.

 

 

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By thomas
05th Mar 2014 10:32

Bottom right corner shows April 2013

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By Sandnickel
05th Mar 2014 10:33

There is your problem...

Andy is correct, all P&L adjustments are posted against reserves. The opening balance adjustments should only touch the balance sheet, any adjustments to P&L items should go against 3200 (retained profit). You can either reverse the original journal or just post an adjustment journal for the P&L items e.g. cr accounting fees, dr retained profit. This should correct the balances.

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By bro0010
05th Mar 2014 10:45

Once you close...

Thomas,

Once you run a year end process in Sage the Nominal Balances for the year being closed are moved into the comparative year slots. They are not automatically updated by further postings to those calendar months. Instead, all postings to periods in previous years are captured in a BALANCE_BF record - postings to different months in previous years are all captured in this one balance field. Whilst the opening balance on retained earnings will remain at the value computed when the year end process was run, the Balance Sheet report should show the accumulated P&L account balances in the BALANCE_BF record as a Prior Year Adjustment in the capital and reserves section (i.e. Retained Earnings plus Prior Year Adjustment = The balance you were expecting to see). It is possible to manually correct the previous year's balance fields in the individual nominal ledger records but, for most, it is better to avoid late postings if at all possible.  

In addition to Sage's Transactional P&L and Balance Sheet reports, there are a number of transaction based Sage reporting tools (including our own) that produce their suites of P&L and Balance Sheet reports and other analyses based on transaction posting dates. For these products it does not matter when the year end process is run - the year end process affects only the balance records not the transaction dates.

On the question of re-running the year end see this link: https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/anyanswers/question/sage-year-end-procedure

I hope this helps. 

Ian

 

Onion Reporting Software Ltd

www.onionrs.co.uk

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By FoxAccountancyServices
05th Mar 2014 10:48

It rears its head again

The date to use has always been a massive subject of contention.  I personally pass on journals and ask for them to be dated 01.04.13 - mainly because when running the Sage PL and BS in the new year, there are no comparatives anyway, and you don't adjust the PL codes, only the BS.  When the client sends in the accounts the following year, the journals being dated 01.04.13 actually helps.. I always check the opening balances agree to what's on the previous year's TB, and I then check the journals were posted correctly.  In a perfect world, clients don't make adjustments to the previous year, and everything balances.. but life's not perfect unfortunately, and I find doing things this way makes life a little easier, and doesn't bother the client.

Its a personal choice between accountant and client, I feel - there isn't really any wrong or right way, so long as the filed accounts and tax return are correct, Sage is balanced, and both parties are happy.  

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Replying to Accountant A:
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By cbp99
05th Mar 2014 11:20

Journal date

FoxAccountancyServices wrote:

The date to use has always been a massive subject of contention.  I personally pass on journals and ask for them to be dated 01.04.13 - mainly because when running the Sage PL and BS in the new year, there are no comparatives anyway, and you don't adjust the PL codes, only the BS.  When the client sends in the accounts the following year, the journals being dated 01.04.13 actually helps.. I always check the opening balances agree to what's on the previous year's TB, and I then check the journals were posted correctly.  In a perfect world, clients don't make adjustments to the previous year, and everything balances.. but life's not perfect unfortunately, and I find doing things this way makes life a little easier, and doesn't bother the client.

 

Obviously everyone will use methods that work for them, but for me there are two problems with this method. 1) It is not easy (is it even possible?) in Sage to run a TB for the first of a month, and 2) The b/fwd TB will be mixed up with any transactions dated on the first of the year.

The first thing we do when starting accounts for the following year is run a b/fwd TB in Sage to make sure it agrees with ours, and that there are no P&L items there.That I why we date our adjustments on the last day of the previous year, with all movement on the P&L going to 3200, as others have said.

Other accounting packages such as VT are less restrictive than Sage in the ability to switch between years, and in simple adjustment of dates for reporting purposes.

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By andy.partridge
05th Mar 2014 11:20

Right or wrong?

It might be a choice made between accountant and client, but technically it is surely wrong. I suppose if the client isn't doing any management accounting during the year is doesn't matter so much, but if they have made some absolute howlers it seems odd that those very same howlers should be carried forward to screw up the current year.

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By thomas
05th Mar 2014 11:35

Arghh and now I can see the client has posted more transactions in ye 31/03/13 since I was given the final data so its not even a case of just my adjustments any more!  I hate Sage.

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Replying to JJBarrow:
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By Trevski
05th Mar 2014 11:44

SAGE

I know its popular on AWEB to moan about SAGE, but I don't really see why a client posting items into a prior year is SAGE's fault. It does warn you, if client chooses to ignore the warning and proceed surely that's their fault.

Are you suggesting that posting into a prior year is fine on other software?

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Replying to Portia Nina Levin:
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By andy.partridge
05th Mar 2014 11:50

Corrections

Trevski wrote:

I know its popular on AWEB to moan about SAGE, but I don't really see why a client posting items into a prior year is SAGE's fault. It does warn you, if client chooses to ignore the warning and proceed surely that's their fault.

Are you suggesting that posting into a prior year is fine on other software?

No it is not fine, but Sage is notoriously cumbersome when it comes to correcting errors.
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Replying to clark.hall:
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By User deleted
05th Mar 2014 14:30

I would say ...

andy.partridge wrote:

Trevski wrote:

I know its popular on AWEB to moan about SAGE, but I don't really see why a client posting items into a prior year is SAGE's fault. It does warn you, if client chooses to ignore the warning and proceed surely that's their fault.

Are you suggesting that posting into a prior year is fine on other software?

No it is not fine, but Sage is notoriously cumbersome when it comes to correcting errors.

... SAGE is notoriously easy for dealing with these late entered transaction issues. As Sarah says, if you run a TB for Opening balances, any late entries will appear against P&L codes, simplye reverse these dated 31/03/03 and put them back in as 01/04/13. If you run the O/B trial balance as a csv or excel file you can edit and post in seconds using the import facility.

You can also find them by running an audit trail - brief from the financials reports, starting with the first transaction after the year end and including only dates up to the closed year end.

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Replying to WhichTyler:
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By andy.partridge
05th Mar 2014 14:55

Cynical

Old Greying Accountant wrote:

[... SAGE is notoriously easy for dealing with these late entered transaction issues. As Sarah says, if you run a TB for Opening balances, any late entries will appear against P&L codes, simplye reverse these dated 31/03/03 and put them back in as 01/04/13.

Why would you want all the client errors/accountant amendments to be entered in and screw up the current year? Oh I forgot, the data is for the accountant's benefit, not the client's.

Edit - Ah maybe I misunderstood you. Apologies if that's the case.

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Replying to pauljohnston:
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By User deleted
05th Mar 2014 15:42

You have no choice ....

andy.partridge wrote:

Old Greying Accountant wrote:

[... SAGE is notoriously easy for dealing with these late entered transaction issues. As Sarah says, if you run a TB for Opening balances, any late entries will appear against P&L codes, simplye reverse these dated 31/03/03 and put them back in as 01/04/13.

Why would you want all the client errors/accountant amendments to be entered in and screw up the current year? Oh I forgot, the data is for the accountant's benefit, not the client's.

Edit - Ah maybe I misunderstood you. Apologies if that's the case.

... if 2013 accounts have been preapred and filed, any late entries have to be reported in 2014, unless they are so large as to require 2013 to be revised and be re-submitted - this is what I understood we were talking about - getting SAGE in to line with the filed accounts - nothing about making life easy for the accountant or the client, just complying with the law.

If the 2013 financial statements are still unfiled then that is a different matter and the entries identified by Sarah's method just need to be dealt with accordingly, adjusting comparatives etc. and the financial statements need to be amended.

Alternatively, you could leave as is but just make sure you add the identified tranasactions in to 2014 financial statements, but that will leave the 2014 MI intact and accurate, they will get swept up in the 2014 year end. It all depends if teh customer is using SAGE for MI or just as a debtor/creditor ledger and bank reconciliation tool!

Just noticed your edit, accepted ;o)

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By Richard Willis
05th Mar 2014 12:51

Oh how I yearn for systems past

One wonderful system that I used to use (Exact Globe for Windows I think, pre their SQL update) used to have a period 0 into which all adjustments to PY could be entered and Period 1 reflected same! 

In Sage one has to enter any PYAs, then do a journal to clear the resulting P&L changes to Acc. P&L.  THEN, from memory, do all the BS entries again in the current year so that they match. I am not sure that cumbersome covers it!

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By thomas
05th Mar 2014 12:59


I guess I'm not convinced Sage is a good choice of software for a client with no accounting background who wants to do all the day to day data entry.  The client picked Sage only because it came free with a Barclays bank account.  Nightmare.  I've love to switch them to something else but given the business is struggling, they want to save money, not spend more. They also have little appreciation of what I do.

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
05th Mar 2014 15:11

Do not Journal opening Balances on the 1st it messes up sage

Hi 

Can I advice that you do not do Journals  on the 1st as this is not how sage works and prevents you from using sage reporting in the right way.  It is wrong to post on the 1st because when you print an TB on the 1st this will not be the opening figures it will also include all the transactions on the 1st as Andy and CbP99 has said and this is in my view an incorrect way for accounts to be presented to an accountant and messes up the companies current Management accounts.  

The accountants final year end adjustments even if the year end is closed is on the closing date so that the reports work.   If the year is shut then your journals post to the retained profit 3200 if not then you can post Journals to relevant P& L codes prior to closing yr end down

 There is  a Opening TB and Opening Balance Sheet for this very reason that is why you complete the journals on the year end date.

  Sage does have comparatives and they can also be overridden if needed  within each nominal code on the activity tab. Profit and loss comparative reports for P& L quarterly budgets reports are all in the Financial Module under the Final Reports on the far right side of the menu bar. 

The nominal ledger reports are also design for the yr end date to be put in correctly as when you print it, you tick include opening balances.  If you are entering the 1st of the month it kicks out the History balance for those dates. 

 

Firstly the code to journal for your retained profit is 3200 

This is what you need to do 

1  Go to the Financial Module 

2  Go to Print out a Trial Balance

( Using the dropdown box to get the opening trial balance this should be just above the Trial Balance for April. 

3  Go to Print out a Balance Sheet 

( Using the dropdown box to get the opening trial balance this should be just above the Balance sheet  for April. 

If you have done your journals adjustment correctly the Opening TB and Opening Balance should agree with your statutory  accounts.  

 

In the opening TB you should not see any P& L codes if you do this would suggest that there has been further entries in that year and that would need to be fixed.   The opening reports are there so that accountants can  check that the customer has made no further entries as it works very well. 

 

PS This does not work if you use the 1st April as the balance sheet will take in all the transactions that also happen on this day. 

 

Kind Regards Douglas Accountancy and Bookkeeping Services Glasgow

 

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By Paul Cleverley
05th Mar 2014 13:52

Or just restore...

...The prior YEND backup.

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
05th Mar 2014 14:00

Restore the prior year backup

You can only do that if no further work has been entered otherwise you would lose all the entry that has been completed in the new year.   

If no new year items have been entered then that is an option. 

 

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By thomas
05th Mar 2014 14:37

Thank you Sarah.  Your clear

Thank you Sarah.  Your clear instructions worked perfectly and I have a closing TB which agrees to the accounts.  I just need the client to figure out what transactions were added before the y/e was run as he will need to post them in 2014 now.

 

Phew.  Another 'simple' job which has taken far longer than it should have done.

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
05th Mar 2014 14:45

Just a tip for Grey Accountant re above post

 

In Sage 2013 and 2014 

The opening TB and  and Opening Balance sheet are drillable reports so if you double click into the amount totals which are in blue on the drillable report it will go print up a report with the transactions numbers to make up figure.   So even easier to fix 

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By User deleted
05th Mar 2014 15:04

As a further tip ...

... When I save a SAGE file to use to prepare accounts I label it as follows

Client ref - SAGE vXX - Last transaction number - decription

EG; BloggsJ-v18-12546-forFS310313

That way I know what transactions will have been added since the extract used for the 2013 accounts.

@Sarah, a useful tip, but once you have clicked through to see that they do need to be moved to current year, exporting the TB as a csv and importing the journals to amend is really easy, although you often find they just need re-dating as you will find entries put in as 05/01/13 should actually be 05/01/14 as it takes a while to adjust to a new year, especially as you will still be posting 2013 entries in 2014 - Thomas, you may find that is why the client has put in 2013 entries, they are actually 2014 ones with the wrong date!

 

 

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
05th Mar 2014 15:03

Thanks Grey Accountant - Good tip for the future

I was also just thinking years ago with a large volume of entry clients it used to be much harder. 

As an audit check with with my customers on visits and knowing the last transaction number re yr end .   I go into maintenance and put the items into date order it really highlights if one of them has entered wrong dates are enter them  in to the previous year as the transaction number is always well further on or way out of sequence with the general data input of that month.   On client visits we find the Jan Feb March the big culprit months.  For our clients who are cash based vat.   We tried to make sure they have correct potential errors prior to CIS returns or Vat Returns when using sage.   

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
05th Mar 2014 15:05

Andy

I think you and Grey accountant are on the same page as the method we are talking about ( entering the closing date makes sure you do not bring last years accounts or any problems into the future year.  

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