Hello
I am currently a research scientist after completing my PhD early this year. I really want to make a career move to accountancy, and will try to get onto a graduate scheme with a big four company as an initial attempt to switch careers (as I love a challenge, want to get big names on my CV and also vaguely maintain my current salary). I think my CV fits accountancy very well (e.g. data handling, maths, organisation, presenting skills), though I do not know whether I should spend a few days' work experience at small accountancy firms to show my interest and help me at interview. Any advice or opinions on whether that might be useful? Also, as accountants, would you recommend me contacting companies by email or phone, and if email then should I attach my CV? Do you get many requests for work experience?
Any help, advice or comments would be very gratefully received.
Grasshopper
Replies (32)
Please login or register to join the discussion.
It might be worth checking out this Aweb article
It might be worth you checking out this recent graduate advice article on accountingWEB. Not all the content is relevant for your situation, but Carol McLachlan (Coach Carol) does offer some good advice: “You have to get some experience to show that you are serious,” advises Coach Carol. “Since accountancy takes the highest number of graduates of any profession, employers are wary about people’s turning to it as a last ditch option. This would probably be voluntary – that is, free – experience.”
Work experience will demonstrate your commitment to the profession.
Good Luck!
Experience
It might be worth you checking out this recent graduate advice article on accountingWEB. Not all the content is relevant for your situation, but Carol McLachlan (Coach Carol) does offer some good advice: “You have to get some experience to show that you are serious,” advises Coach Carol. “Since accountancy takes the highest number of graduates of any profession, employers are wary about people’s turning to it as a last ditch option. This would probably be voluntary – that is, free – experience.”
Friend's son got a training contract with KPMG with a decent first degree (not accountancy) and no experience whatsoever. Experience would be good, I would agree, but not vital.
.
My wife is a Dr of chemistry and many of her chemistry friends and people she studied with have trained as accountants. It seems to be a good fit for a logical mind. It is certainly a well worn path.
Difficult
The breeziness of your posting gives me the impression you've no idea how difficult it is to get a training position, and have not given a thought as to how you are going to sell yourself in a world choc a block full of young grads straight out of uni.
Relevant experience is going to be hard to get, even if you volunteer to work for nothing. Just the cost of an experienced staff member's time to train you would be offputting to a prospective employer.
There are plenty of people on Aweb who did switch careers to Accountancy, but they had to surmount some pretty difficult challenges to get there. As for maintaining a decent level of salary in a training position, well - you must be joking.
Afraid to say my first thoughts tally with Moonbeams.
I ended up taking a "gap year"...I use inverted commas because it certainly wasn't planned. In my 3rd year of uni I naively believed that as I would soon be a graduate I'd apply for a couple of the best jobs, get two offers, and choose the one I liked the look of the most. Needless to say that didn't happen.
Having a PHD won't IMO make you any more appealing to an accounting firm.
Sorry for the downhearted post, I'm not saying it won't happen for you...just feel you might get a slightly rude awakening, as I did a decade or so ago.
Reality check needed
Your PhD is not a passport to switch careers.
Expect a large drop in salary, followed by more years studying whilst being drip fed pay increases.
Saying your CV fits accountancy very well is quite arrogant. Yes, you have transferrable skills, but so will many other graduates.
if you are only interested in the big 4 just sign on (online) to their graduate recruitment schemes, which should be kicking off about now (to coincide with final year undergraduates returning to university), and take it from there.
.
That all seems pretty negative! We dont know where the OP got their Phd from. If it was oxbridge then a move to the big 4 whilst not in the bag, would be fairly odds on....if it was an old FE college kitted out with an extra bunsen burner, maybe not.
You will be rubbing shoulders with 21 year olds on the same grade, but quite frankly bean counting with the big players pays a lot more than lab work. The only difference is you will have more maturity which may help with office politics.
This seems a lot..
That all seems pretty negative! We dont know where the OP got their Phd from. If it was oxbridge then a move to the big 4 would be far from an impossible dream....if it was an old FE college kitted out with an extra bunsen burner, maybe not.
You will be rubbing shoulders with 21 year olds on the same grade, but quite frankly bean counting with the big players pays a lot more than lab work. The only difference is you will have more maturity which may help with office politics.
more sensible than some posts.
Consider taxation
I would just add that if you have inter-personal communication skills then you could consider a much more interesting and rewarding career (although not necessarily financially) in taxation.
There will always be a need for intelligent people in tax, but unfortunately a PhD may only get you through the door to a fairly junior role until trained up. After that you will have a great time trying to keep up to date with hundreds of pages of legislation each year.
If you want an interesting life go for a career in tax. If you like counting beans try accountancy!
No offence meant to my lovely accountant friends, but it is difficult to explain the differences between our worlds.
The usual route for most people seeking work outside the biggest firms is to use an agency, but sending your CV directly will work just as well in most cases.
Good luck.
tax more interesting?!
I would just add that if you have inter-personal communication skills then you could consider a much more interesting and rewarding career (although not necessarily financially) in taxation.
There will always be a need for intelligent people in tax, but unfortunately a PhD may only get you through the door to a fairly junior role until trained up. After that you will have a great time trying to keep up to date with hundreds of pages of legislation each year.
If you want an interesting life go for a career in tax. If you like counting beans try accountancy!
No offence meant to my lovely accountant friends, but it is difficult to explain the differences between our worlds.
The usual route for most people seeking work outside the biggest firms is to use an agency, but sending your CV directly will work just as well in most cases.
Drifting off topic, but my personal experience certainly did not coincide with the above! I did my 3 years training in audit/accounts, and look back on it with fond memories. I then moved to corporate tax to do by CTA and found it boring as can be. It was basically copying numbers from the accounts into the tax computation. Well paid data entry. It was generally working on your own as "the tax person", feeling isolated from the 5-10 friends in "the audit team".
Obviously everyone's experience is different, but my expectations of going into tax being a bunch of egg heads sitting round a table dreaming up complex tax avoidance schemes were far from reality! It also taught me that generally speaking, the more you learn about tax, the more you learn reasons why your clients should be paying extra tax that a less qualified/experienced person might not spot.
Compliance
I would just add that if you have inter-personal communication skills then you could consider a much more interesting and rewarding career (although not necessarily financially) in taxation.
There will always be a need for intelligent people in tax, but unfortunately a PhD may only get you through the door to a fairly junior role until trained up. After that you will have a great time trying to keep up to date with hundreds of pages of legislation each year.
If you want an interesting life go for a career in tax. If you like counting beans try accountancy!
No offence meant to my lovely accountant friends, but it is difficult to explain the differences between our worlds.
The usual route for most people seeking work outside the biggest firms is to use an agency, but sending your CV directly will work just as well in most cases.
Drifting off topic, but my personal experience certainly did not coincide with the above! I did my 3 years training in audit/accounts, and look back on it with fond memories. I then moved to corporate tax to do by CTA and found it boring as can be. It was basically copying numbers from the accounts into the tax computation. Well paid data entry. It was generally working on your own as "the tax person", feeling isolated from the 5-10 friends in "the audit team".
Obviously everyone's experience is different, but my expectations of going into tax being a bunch of egg heads sitting round a table dreaming up complex tax avoidance schemes were far from reality! It also taught me that generally speaking, the more you learn about tax, the more you learn reasons why your clients should be paying extra tax that a less qualified/experienced person might not spot.
Sounds like you are talking about tax compliance, not tax advisory.
If Alan would like to clarify whether he is, or has been, an accountant as well as a tax adviser, it would be possible to put his comments into context. If he has only ever done tax his comments about the inherent superiority of that field over one he has never tried, or couldn't hack, should be taken with a pinch of salt :)
Not superior in any way, just different
If Alan would like to clarify whether he is, or has been, an accountant as well as a tax adviser, it would be possible to put his comments into context. If he has only ever done tax his comments about the inherent superiority of that field over one he has never tried, or couldn't hack, should be taken with a pinch of salt :)
I was not intending to imply tax was a superior career in any way. Both have their debits and credits ;)
My flippant comments were only meant to show that there are also tax roles that some find interesting. Some people seem to think accountancy firms are just full of accountants, but I wanted to mention that there are other roles, including tax, which are numerate, but different to that of accountant.
Tax
You said it was "much more interesting and rewarding", which was hardly a neutral observation.
There is nothing whatever wrong with holding that view, but I was curious to find out what experience it was based on.
I am sure that every new entrant to the profession is well aware that tax is an important specialism within that profession.
Personally, having worked with a great many tax specialists I find the most useful ones are those who are also accountants. Tax specialists who don't know their way around a set of accounts are labouring under a handicap. Just my opinion of course.
Firm I went to only employed accountants to do tax
Personally, having worked with a great many tax specialists I find the most useful ones are those who are also accountants. Tax specialists who don't know their way around a set of accounts are labouring under a handicap. Just my opinion of course.
Indeed the CT team of the top 10 firm I went into only took on qualified accountants. They weren't interested in those who had done ATT for example.
I think the main reason was due to the work including a lot of calculations of deferred tax, which as many tax buffs will tell you is purely an accounting concept. Therefore we had to have a good knowledge of debits and credits, as well as understanding things like NBV of assets (to compare to TWDV), and various other things that I've long since forgotten!
You have every reason to be able to approach your applications with confidence.
You will increase your chances if you do not limit yourself to the big 4.
But please get rid of this idea that having four degrees will automatically rank you above applicants with only one. It won't. It might be like that in the academic world, but it cuts no ice in the professional world.
Good luck with your applications.
What a waste
I do realise that the lure of ££££ in the accountancy profession is considerable. But I can't help thinking that all that time, effort and training you have been through is now going to be lost to the scientific world. If that is the value that our society puts on science, then it is little wonder less and less are taking science A levels.
My first job
I started out with a degree in accountancy at my first job in tax. The rest of the team was:
- A sports therapist
- A vet
- A molecular biologist
Since then I've worked with, maybe, a half dozen people who actually stated in finance and stayed with it, the other dozen or more started in other fields (often science related like dentist or the vet/biologist above).
I used to think it strange, now I come to expect it.
4 degrees
If I were considering whether to employ you, the fact that you had 4 degrees would probably weigh against you. I would worry that you would want to change direction again in a year or two. I would also be concerned that you would find much of the work unchallenging. A lot of the important stuff we do is routine, but it still needs to be done, and done well.
Couldn't agree more
If I were considering whether to employ you, the fact that you had 4 degrees would probably weigh against you. I would worry that you would want to change direction again in a year or two. I would also be concerned that you would find much of the work unchallenging. A lot of the important stuff we do is routine, but it still needs to be done, and done well.
This summarises my thoughts as well.
Tend to agree
If I were considering whether to employ you, the fact that you had 4 degrees would probably weigh against you. I would worry that you would want to change direction again in a year or two. I would also be concerned that you would find much of the work unchallenging. A lot of the important stuff we do is routine, but it still needs to be done, and done well.
I tend to agree in principle but would put it differently.
I would simply say that the OP has a higher hurdle to overcome than a new graduate when it comes to convincing an employer that accountancy is really what they want to do. He just needs to be aware of this and prepare for the inevitable questions, to which he may well have very good answers.
Hi grasshopper, sorry if some (including me) have come down a little harsh on you, whether with good intentions or not.
Yes work experience will certainly help. If two seemingly bright people applied for a job with me, one had worked as a brain surgeon and rocket scientist, the other looking for a step up from some kind of admin role, I'd be more likely to offer a job to the latter.
Do you know anyone in the profession? As with many industries I think it's who you know at least as much as what you know which will help you get a foot in the door. You need to remember that even if unpaid, work experience is basically a hassle for the firm. They need to get someone to spend time sitting with you, explaining things to you, checking what you do etc etc. If you're only there for a week there won't be much benefit (if any) to the firm.
Only yesterday I had a job application from someone who's apparently been a forex trader for ~5 years. It started "dear HR manager" (very easy to find relevant name from our website) and waffled on about how brilliant they were. Needless to say they didn't get very far.
After the last time we recruited I wrote a blog with my thoughts about what some had/hadn't done well which you may be interested to read here.
@grasshopper, i am not sure why this thread is so hostile. Your plans seem quite viable to me, whilst it is correct that the number of bits of paper you have wont hold a lot of sway in business it does show aptitude for study which is essential.
Work experience certainly wont hinder your applications, whether they will make much of a difference I am not sure.
I am from a "Big 6" as it was then background and we had a Dr in the year below me. They did have to adjust a bit to being "bottom of the pile" and working for people a lot younger than them (I was exam qualified at 23!) but they certainly had their positives too.
I had a relevant degree going in, and i had to be taken down a peg or two myself as whilst this did give me an advantage in the exam hall, out on audit it was of little help as I quickly learned!
If you are a data nerd there are lots of jobs post qual for people of that sort of inclination. A large number of qualified accountants don't actually do accounting in terms of "tax'n'accounts", albeit most of those who post on here do. I have my own small practice and work for several qualified accountants who cant do their own tax or returns.
I don’t think the thread is hostile.
Some of the comments could be taken that way, but I think the underlying advice is good.
The OP now knows not to go into this with a blasé attitude and has hopefully taken away some other good advice – such as Maslins blog has some great advice.
I think the OP has shown they can do very well academically. The 4 degrees may not put employers off, especially if they are related subjects. It wouldn’t put many of you off of a candidate had AAT, ATT, ACCA and CTA, for example.
Getting some work experience will give you the upper hand on a lot of graduates. You say you have spoken to some accountants already – can they give you some experience? If anything, it will give you an insight into the profession before committing to it.
You say you’d like a salary that the Big 4 offer. I wouldn’t set your heart on that. If your committed to a career in accountancy or tax, it would be worth a drop in salary until you get through your professional exams if this is where you see your future.
Good luck.
yes, yes, yes, and yes
yes get some experience
yes by email
yes send your CV
yes we get lots, all the time, I epxect most people just delete them, we reply to all.Goo
Good luck - there's tons you can do with accountancy, its a great career and if the big 4 don't take you I'd consider the industry in which your Phd is most likely to be ann added bonus..
Accountancy and tax
Hi, Why not take and pass the accountancy exams while at your present job? With your four degrees, you should pass them quickly. Then take it from there.
Personal Interest
First the very basic question, why do you want to switch “career”? Choice of profession should be based on personal interest. If you have interest in a field, you will excel otherwise it will be just a job.
Sharp mind does help in many endeavors more so in Sciences than Business. Most individuals in every profession think that their profession requires most sharp minds and accountants are no exceptions.
If you are worrying about / comparing salaries then wait and reevaluate your priorities. What do you want in life? Bags full of money or a happy life?
Accounting is not mathematics or statistics. It involves lot of numbers but little math. Data work will help you but to a limited extent. As of keeping updated on new scientific research verses new legislature, just keep in mind that laws of nature are much better structured than human laws, just see the bickering in parliaments and in tax/ accounting professional circles.
Last there will never be a chance to win Noble prize in Accountancy. Base your choice on your personal interest, instead of proposing the most beautiful girl in the town propose to the one you love.