Stupid little P11D question

Stupid little P11D question

Didn't find your answer?

Does RFL get included in the list price of car, for BIK purposes?

Yes I ought to know.

With kind regards

Clint Westwood

Replies (10)

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By nogammonsinanundoubledgame
24th Jun 2015 13:58

Forget that

Yes it is included.

Found it.  S.171(1)

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By Steve Kesby
24th Jun 2015 14:05

No it isn't

The "car tax" referred to in s 171(1) does not mean vehicle excise duty; it is referring to the (new) car tax that used to apply to purchases of new cars.

See: https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/anyanswers/question/p11d-car-list-price-...

And: https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/anyanswers/question/p11d-car-value

What is an isn't included in the list price of the car is the concern of the manufacturer's. The taxpayer just uses the manufacturer's published list price, without having to think about it.

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By nogammonsinanundoubledgame
24th Jun 2015 15:22

Thanks for opening up that can of worms for me

Been through the links.  Remain unconvinced.

S.171(1) defines "relevant taxes" as

"any car tax, any value added tax, any customs or excise duty and any tax chargeable as if it were a customs duty"

Or, to paraphrase, with my emphasis:

"ANY car tax ... or excise duty ..."

It does not go on to define "car tax", ie in terms of pre or post 13 Nov 1992 regs, but nor need it given that ANY car tax is caught.

So, is Road Fund Licence a car tax?  Not that HMRC website is the most reliable source, but they certainly think it is, per

https://www.gov.uk/calculate-vehicle-tax-rates

and

https://www.gov.uk/browse/driving/car-tax-discs

If it is not a "tax", then is it an "excise duty"?  Well the official change of name from Road Fund Licence to Vehicle Excise Duty might give a clue.

So I remain unconvinced.

With kind regards

Clint Westwood

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By Mr_awol
24th Jun 2015 15:54

You (or more accurately the manufacturers) do indeed include th first year excise duty (widely called 'showroom tax' at launch) in the P11D value.

However, as said above, you probably don't care as you will jut be using the manufacturer's value (adjusted for accessories fitted) anyway, surely?

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By Dido63
24th Jun 2015 15:55

Not a stupid question really

Sorry if this is a bit late, but here's your answer from HMRC's perspective & I'm inclined to agree with you too; include it

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/412176...

If link doesn't work it's HMRC's expenses & benefits toolkit

Point 5 - click on the link & shows an example of what's included.

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By Steve Kesby
24th Jun 2015 15:55

Yes but

S. 171(1) has to be read in the context of ss 122 & 123. VED is not part of the price the car, it is a cost of keeping and using the car on the public highway for a period of time. Payment of the ongoing VED is then outwith the car benefit provision by virtue of s 239.

It doesn't make anys sense to include the first year's VED in the list price. You could decide to buy the car with or without it or with 6 or 12 months worth.

I very much stand by just using the manufacturer's published list price though, which is exactly what s 123(1) requires.

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By JamesAnd
24th Jun 2015 16:15

I agree with Steve and would

I agree with Steve and would refer you to EIM24105.

 

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By Mr_awol
24th Jun 2015 16:20

Not any more

Steve I would have agreed with you up t five years ago - when you could probably have bought the car without VED if you' wanted - like you can with a used car.

 

Now, the first year VED includes the traditional RFL plus a one off tax.  The former isnt included, the latter is.

Edit: I hav managed to quickly fnd a link that supports this:

http://www.seat.co.uk/content/medialib/seat/uk/fleet---business/brochure...

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By nogammonsinanundoubledgame
24th Jun 2015 16:23

Thanks

I have something to hang my hat on, whatever is right or wrong.  Good enough, thanks.

Bit of a shame that the figure is so darned difficult to get hold of, given that there is a statutory requirement to rely on it.

With kind regards

Clint Westwood

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By Steve Kesby
24th Jun 2015 16:37

Er...

... I accept the point that Mr_awol makes, based on the linked document.

HOWEVER, doe that mean that the list price of say a D banded car is then reduced by £100 in the final analysis? There seems to be a negative "showroom tax" for bands B to D.

BUT the figure I would use (using a Seat Leon Cupra as an example) would be found here: http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/seat/leon/cupra/facts-figures/

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