Visits by a VAT officer, does it have to be at the business address?

Visits by a VAT officer, does it have to be at...

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Good morning to you all.

We have a client that has applied to register for VAT. It has taken a good part of 2 months since the application went in, in the meantime there was a request for further information, which was sent including invoices, bank statements and contracts which were all duly sent by the deadline. Since then HMRC have sent a letter which says they'd like to meet the director to discuss the application and the company's business activities in general. They have stated that they want to see further documentation again, including invoices raised, bank statements and contracts.

The client is a very small business that provides doormen to night clubs, pubs and private functions. All of the doormen operate on a self employed basis and provide their own insurance.

The client operates from their home and has requested the meeting to take place at our office on the basis that it is a more professional environment and would bring all of the documentation relating to the company. We called the HMRC inspector on the clients behalf and asked if it would be possible to have the meeting at our office rather that the clients home. The inspector said it would be ok but would need the client to organise the change so I duly advised the client to contact the inspector to change the meeting. As such we asked the client to contact HMRC to request the change to which the inspector turned very sour, saying "why would you want to do that?!" and that they would need to see all paper work which the client said they would bring all of it to our office. The HMRC inspector eventually said that it had to be at the business address to the client after telling me that it could be changed to our address.

He really upset the client and spoke to her very aggressively and unprofessionally. I called him afterwards and expressed my frustration that he had told me it would be ok to change the meeting to our office, which he started saying he never told me. I experienced the way he spoke to my client and it was highly unprofessional. I stated that I didn't appreciate the way he had spoken with her. I ended the call by asking for details to make a formal complaint.

I found this on the HMRC website http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/problems/vat-visits.htm :

"VAT officers normally visit you at your main place of business...This won't always be necessary - if, for example, your principal place of business is your home, and your work is that of a computer consultant or similar, the VAT officer may agree to meet you at your accountant's premises instead."

Has anyone else experienced this with HMRC VAT officers? Is it reasonable to arrange the meeting at an address other than the business address?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Adam.

Replies (11)

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By Kingsgrove
19th Nov 2012 10:32

Fishing exercise

One of our clients had a similar experience, friendly VAT man wants to come out and meet them following VAT registration application.

They arranged meeting direct with client who is a bit naive to say the least...two of them arrived on the day in question, and essentially it was a PAYE discussion from the PAYE chap and the VAT man didn't say a word hardly!

 

 

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Replying to bernard michael:
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By frustratedwithhmrc
19th Nov 2012 13:01

Always demand an agenda for any HMRC meeting

Kingsgrove wrote:
One of our clients had a similar experience, friendly VAT man wants to come out and meet them following VAT registration application.

They arranged meeting direct with client who is a bit naive to say the least...two of them arrived on the day in question, and essentially it was a PAYE discussion from the PAYE chap and the VAT man didn't say a word hardly!

Yes, we've had a similar attempt from HMRC on the same vein, a meeting nominally about VAT which was actually a disguised PAYE/IR35 fishing expedition.

Fortunately, we'd demanded an agenda from the VAT inspector (from which we struck the AOB - "Any other Business" items).

On the day, three HMRC folks turned up, the VAT Inspector and two PAYE bods. They tried to distract the meeting a couple of times onto PAYE/IR35 issues and were batted down as being "not on the agenda" and "not relevant to the topics under discussion". By the end of the meeting, they were bloody fuming, VAT Inspector was really nice and helpful, but clearly embarrassed by her colleagues.

From my perspective, if they were going to play silly buggers and waste my time, then I have no qualms about wasting their time as they wasted ours. If they had been honest about wanting a wider compliance discussion, then they should have been open and honest about it and we would have reciprocated in kind.

This is another reason why we insist with clients and confirm in the letter of engagement that all enquiries from HMRC are referred back to our offices, regardless of the triviality.

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Me!
By nigelburge
19th Nov 2012 10:38

A few thoughts

1   If your client's business premises are at his private residence and the VAT officer would have to pass through the private part to reach the office (business part), then the VAT has NO right to do so without the client's consent, even if a visit is authorised by the FT Tribunal.

2   If you have been properly authorised to act re VAT for your client, then you can insist that ALL correspondence goes via yourself. You will need to train your client in this.

3   Many VAT officers are used to getting their own way by being aggressive and unpleasant. Always know your rights under the relevant legislation and do not be afraid to insist on them firmly and politely.

4   If necessary, insist on all meetings and telephone conversations being recorded. In this case particularly so given the attitude of the VAT officer so far.

5   ALWAYS be unfailingly polite and professional in your dealings with the VAT officer, even under extreme provocation.

5   Finally, NEVER be afraid to go to the FTT if necessary and make that clear to HMRC.

Good luck!

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By adam.copeland
19th Nov 2012 11:26

Thanks

Thank you very much for your advice, certainly gives me some things to consider when dealing with them.

Thanks again.

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By Mrtaxation
19th Nov 2012 13:40

Reasonable

It is absolutely reasonable to request the meeting at the accountant's office. Officers do have the power to inspect business premises where goods of the business are stored. If that happens to be a home then particularly with a VAT registration or repayment VAT return the realistic power sits with HMRC as they can effectively delay or withhold a registration or repayment until satisfied that goods exist for example. I should point out though that HMRC do not have any right to search premises and have no right to inspect goods beyond the area therefore where they are stored. 

This though is a services business and there simply is no need to conduct a visit to the home unless there was some compelling reason to visit the home, established as the business address for the purposes of progressing a VAT registration. The issue though is that by registering at home HMRC have a technical right to visit the premises...although it is entirely down to the client to let them in.

HMRC are obliged to undertake reasonable checks with regard to validating a VAT registration but they cannot make unreasonable demands in pursuit of that. They need to state their reason for why a visit to the business address is necessary to do that. If all they need are the records then the offer to provide them at the accountant's address is a reasonable response; their response is not. Contrary to popular misconception within HMRC, VAT registration is both a right and obligation and any business attempting to comply with the VAT legislation cannot be hampered in pursuit of that by unnecessary demands. I would calm matters down with the officer concerned and simply ask why a visit to the home is necessary and why meeting at the office is not acceptable. I also agree with the earlier post that a meeting agenda should be established. 

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By adam.copeland
19th Nov 2012 13:47

Very helpful

Thanks to all, your responses are very helpful. I will request an agenda from them and defuse the situation with the inspector.

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Me!
By nigelburge
19th Nov 2012 15:40

Always demand an agenda for any HMRC meeting

Very good point indeed.

And don't be fobbed off with some wishy-washy vague agenda - you are fully entitled to a detailed one. HMRC will most certainly have one although they won't want you to see it in advance.

My rule is - no detailed agenda, no meeting.

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By adam.copeland
20th Nov 2012 11:20

Update...

Just thought I'd give you an update. The inspector decided to cancel the meeting and has instead sent a letter to the client requesting the information to be sent in the post. I will see what they are after when the client sends me a copy.

Thanks again for the advice you gave me with this matter.

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Me!
By nigelburge
20th Nov 2012 11:31

Well done!

That looks like a very good result.

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By refs8
20th Nov 2012 11:45

Never allow the clients to speak with HMRC

For quiet sometime I have had a policy of not allowing clients to talk with Tax or Vat inspectors as it is not in the best interests of the client. Works well for clients, us but not HMRC IMO

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Replying to Kent accountant:
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By frustratedwithhmrc
20th Nov 2012 12:07

My feelings on that particular subject

refs8 wrote:

Works well for clients, us but not HMRC IMO

Oh dear.

How sad.

Never mind.

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