I have a new client who uses Xero. Overall not bad except for payroll. Unless I am missing something it is really dismal.
What I want to do is make sure the payroll elements in the profit and loss and balance sheet tie in to the payslips and the P32. Really basic stuff, you'd think. Essential for year-end reconciling. Essential for any sorts of HMRC glitches or enquiries, which will tend to crop up in the prior year not the current year.
So far I have been unable to find a report showing any of the following:
1. P32 for 2014-15 tax year.
2. Payslips which include year to date figures for any point in 2014-15 tax year.
3. P60s for 2014-15 tax year.
4. Summaries of amounts paid year-to-date by gross, PAYE, NI, other deductions for any period in 2014-15.
Say it ain't so! Surely somewhere in the system these very basic reports exist. If they do they are not easy to find in the menu system. If they don't then at least we have time to get the client on to a decent system for 2016-17 payroll.
Replies (53)
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Xero payroll
I might be wrong, but I have a feeling Xero payroll only started from 2015/16. I did look at it earlier in the year, but have to admit I didn't like it and will be sticking with the wonderful Moneysoft!
Xero payroll
All I can say is I've had nothing but problems since switching from Sage Payroll to Xero when it was launched in my view it was not fit for purpose and subscribers have been used as Guinea pigs. The reports which are available are clunky and other reports which one would assume would be available within a payroll software are none existent . No comfort from Xero support when all one gets as responses to questions are links to web pages. Terrible dreading year end
Start date
Xero did start payroll only from the new tax year on 6 April 2015, so you are looking for something that doesn't exist. Xero's fault, evidently
I did have a dabble with it when it came out, largely on the basis of it recording holidays and (iirc) sick days, but that didn't work as I expected it to so I've carried on with the previous package
Sensible advice
As I said in the other thread, nearly all the cloud offerings have introduced payroll relatively recently due to RTI. Once one did it, the others have to follow as it becomes the norm, and sadly, they're all very basic at the moment. It's definitely a work in progress, which is why I continue to use and recommend Moneysoft rather than the cloud versions.
But, then again, you're asking for things which you think are normal and essential, but which aren't available in some simple desktop versions either. As far as I know, the cloud firms aren't promising reports or functions that they're not delivering.
Any sane person would check the features of any product, online or not, before they bought it. The two I use are very open in their webpages as to what their payroll functions do and don't do. And yes, both are very basic/simple systems - their target market is the one man band doing payroll for themselves, so no, they don't yet have all the bells and whistles.
As you've rightly identified, the product you're looking at doesn't have all the functions your client needs. So, get them to use another.
Automatic enrolment / support
When Xero payroll was launched I did ask how its Automatic Enrolment function worked. An immediate short reply was received promising a substantive reply to follow. That substantive reply never was received, so no go Xero payroll here. I was looking forward to a positive answer and consequently an opportunity to learn how to use a sixth payroll software product to compare to the five software products that I have already used in the past year or so.
I expect that a potential advantage of an integrated payroll-with-bookkeeping software is automatic journal posting of wages at each payroll run, as opposed to manual population of a template for wages journals which is the current scenario with a 3rd party payroll software.
Regarding the query raised re: accessing payslips I wonder if the following help page assists:
Payroll in Xero
Hey all, thanks for all your comments.
While we would respectfully suggest that your use of ‘dismal’ is somewhat harsh, compared with more established payroll products it certainly is the case that Payroll in Xero is the new kid on the block and therefore lacks some of the features you’ll take for granted in a more mature system. I would also say that prior to launch we stressed the fact that we were deliberately not targeting accountants nor positioning Xero as a solution for accountants to use as a replacement for a payroll bureau solution. That said, be assured that many thousands of UK businesses and accountants are now using Xero to manage their payroll and we’re always improving its capability.
Turning to the specific questions in this thread:
We are at the end of the formal ‘HMRC Recognition’ assessment process and we should be listed on their directory within a couple of weeks.
Given Payroll in Xero has only been available to use since April 6th 2015, for the current 2015/2016 tax year it therefore is not possible to create 2014/15 P60s, run reports or payslips for the last tax year. These would need to be created in the payroll software that was in use for the 2014/2015 tax year.
A P32 report is available under Taxes & Filings, as a PDF report within each pay run and from the main Reports section in Xero under Payroll Reports.
Payslips include YTD figures and PDF payslips can be viewed whilst each pay run is in draft form and emailed to recipients after the pay run has been posted. There is also a section within each employee record where payslips can be viewed and downloaded. If employees have access to ‘My Payroll’ in Xero then they will have the ability to access their payslips in this area, too.
P60’s will be available by March in time for year-end reporting. With the ability to download the P60, email to employees or make available for employees to access in My Payroll.
Student loan deductions are supported and configured under the Employee Taxes section. We will fully support the new Student Loan plan type starting in the 2016/2017 payroll year.
Workplace pensions including Automatic Enrolment is being released in phases. You can currently save pension scheme information and calculate the employer and employee contribution amounts based on qualifying earnings. Coming next will be entering staging dates and automatic worker assessment, with eligible employees automatically setup for a workplace pension. More information is available here.
Statutory leave calculations is something we know we have to address and it is currently scheduled for release in early 2016. Right now these can easily be entered into each pay run but the calculations need to be completed on Gov.uk or manually.
Oliver Furniss, Xero (GM, Products)
Ah ! At last
Hey all, thanks for all your comments.
While we would respectfully suggest that your use of ‘dismal’ is somewhat harsh, compared with more established payroll products it certainly is the case that Payroll in Xero is the new kid on the block and therefore lacks some of the features you’ll take for granted in a more mature system. I would also say that prior to launch we stressed the fact that we were deliberately not targeting accountants nor positioning Xero as a solution for accountants to use as a replacement for a payroll bureau solution. That said, be assured that many thousands of UK businesses and accountants are now using Xero to manage their payroll and we’re always improving its capability.
Turning to the specific questions in this thread:
We are at the end of the formal ‘HMRC Recognition’ assessment process and we should be listed on their directory within a couple of weeks.
Given Payroll in Xero has only been available to use since April 6th 2015, for the current 2015/2016 tax year it therefore is not possible to create 2014/15 P60s, run reports or payslips for the last tax year. These would need to be created in the payroll software that was in use for the 2014/2015 tax year.
A P32 report is available under Taxes & Filings, as a PDF report within each pay run and from the main Reports section in Xero under Payroll Reports.
Payslips include YTD figures and PDF payslips can be viewed whilst each pay run is in draft form and emailed to recipients after the pay run has been posted. There is also a section within each employee record where payslips can be viewed and downloaded. If employees have access to ‘My Payroll’ in Xero then they will have the ability to access their payslips in this area, too.
P60’s will be available by March in time for year-end reporting. With the ability to download the P60, email to employees or make available for employees to access in My Payroll.
Student loan deductions are supported and configured under the Employee Taxes section. We will fully support the new Student Loan plan type starting in the 2016/2017 payroll year.
Workplace pensions including Automatic Enrolment is being released in phases. You can currently save pension scheme information and calculate the employer and employee contribution amounts based on qualifying earnings. Coming next will be entering staging dates and automatic worker assessment, with eligible employees automatically setup for a workplace pension. More information is available here.
Statutory leave calculations is something we know we have to address and it is currently scheduled for release in early 2016. Right now these can easily be entered into each pay run but the calculations need to be completed on Gov.uk or manually.
Oliver Furniss, Xero (GM, Products)
A Xero rep spouting the usual platitudes. Why launch a software when it is so under cooked? A bit disingenuous to say it was aimed at non accountants. I didn't see that in their speil.
PAYE & NIC inspection
What happens if you've been using the payroll software prior to the HMRC accreditation? I have recently started work for an IT company who uses Xero and the payroll module and I've come across a few errors like benefits not being subjected to tax or NIC. I'm currently still waiting a response from Xero with regards to whats going on with this but thats digressing from the point. If HMRC decided to investigate the payroll, where would we stand with this as it wasn't accredited at the time of these errors? Would it be the directors error for choosing a software that wasn't accredited and would there be fines involved?
I'm desperately trying to get my boss to use another softtare like Brightpay just for payroll but he's insistant that he wants everything in one place and refuses to pay for another software as he's already paying for it in his Xero subscription.
I did ask Xero about lack of reports and was told by them that everything needed was on the P32!
@qhas
"At last" - This thread started on a weekend. A Monday reply isn't too bad.
"usual platitudes" - Xero is the most engaged and responsive accounting software vendor on AccountingWeb. Some question why we bother.
"disingenuous to say not aimed at accountants " - Verbatim statement from me to 800 accountants at our conference in February this year prior to its launch.
Gary Turner
Managing Director, Xero
@garyturner
.
"- Xero is the most engaged and responsive accounting software vendor on AccountingWeb. Some question why we bother.
Whilst I would agree that a lot of this post is carping, you bother as you find out what your users think.
And I hope, listen, no matter how unpleasant.
And this works both ways, we get a better product and you get a bigger business as ultimately we will tell out clients what to use, and what to avoid.
So its a win:win in corporation speak.
You seem to have listened about pushing the price of your multi-currency up under the guise of payroll, and gone back to the previous pricing. Good thing! I am back to suggesting using it rather than saying "its a bit expensive".
Please listen about payroll. It is a bit [***] and may well tarnish the brand. Its all very well you saying something at a conference, but you launched it, it should be ready, end of.
On the plus side, I think the new email reminder thingy for invoices on the other hand is fab, and I am thinking about how to implement that, the main issue is managing the email database which them becomes duplicated if its in Xero and in our mail system and if the pain of syncing that is worth the potential impact of "robot replies" - which I think will work for routine stuff.
Don't feed the trolls
Disengaging, actual work to do.
Gary Turner
Managing Director, Xero
@garyturner
Disengaging. Work to do.,,....
Disengaging, actual work to do.
Gary Turner
Managing Director, Xero
@garyturner
Makes perfect sense. Apologise and take your product off the market as your first job.
Keep going Gary
Us Aweb users like a good moan, and sometimes it goes too far. But ultimately it's client feedback from users who have experience of different systems.
So we may be worth the grief ;-)
@ Mr M
Surely the P60 issue is a non-issue at present (but may become one in future) as Xero payroll only started 2015/16?
xero
This is why I have never transferred to xero they often do things that should be in beta mode. Or with silly work arounds then correct the error about 6 months later.
Although xero has seen a boom in recent years I think accountants will stay with cloud accounting however, move back to the tried and trusted sage products I know I am thinking about it.
I think the attitude of responding to neutral and positive feedback and accusing people with negative feedback as trolls is pretty disgraceful.
Xero for me is too big for its boots. Anyone remember the myth of final account coming? Now a payroll function that is half complete.
If I took my wife to a restaurant for a meal and the plate came with just half the food and we were told we would get the other half in 6 months time, my wife wouldn’t be best please. If he cares, Gary needs to understand why users are frustrated.
Is it worth it?
Is it worth an online accounting system trying to build in payroll? There are some advantages of using a common database for bookkeeping and payroll but I would have thought the time-saving/key-entry type benefits are quite modest.
If this is the case, users will be better off using specialist payroll software that focuses on producing one product.
Time for some humility
One commenter above protested that Xero was getting ‘too big for its boots’, and were that the case then I’d be naturally heeding the advice a few independent observers have offered me, which would be to steer well clear of any further engagement in this particular thread and then seek refuge in the first Ivory Tower I could find.
If I’m known for anything, then it’s my passion, my dogged adherence to high ethical standards and my humility; I’m passionate about working hard, doing good work, working with good people and building things; people and organisations who lie, cheat, harm or exploit others monumentally [***] me off (to a fault sometimes), but I’m also humble - all of which make for an odd combination.
So, instead of switching off this particular channel, I’m here.
Like anyone, sometimes we screw up no matter how hard we try, and sometimes no matter how hard we try it’s never good enough and I suppose that’s fine even if it’s a frustration.
But also like most people, when I know how hard my team has been working on something and then I see their efforts being dismissed and trashed in a thread like this one, it really stings and my instinctive reaction is to defend them. Not because I’m biased and that’s what just you’d expect me to do whether we deserve it or not, but because I know first hand how hard we try to do good stuff, and also how hard it is for people outside the organisation to see that.
(As an aside, I genuinely appreciated the irony of being schooled on online community etiquette by ’Mr Mischief’ and ‘cheekychappy’)
I think it’s also understandable for some community members overlay onto Xero their prevailing expectation that successful accounting software companies are all somehow shysters, and it wouldn’t be the first time that someone had said they thought Xero was turning into another Sage.
That’s definitely not the business we set out to build when we started, and in fact exploiting that evident market failure is a core part of how I think we’ll succeed.
And I hope we’re humble enough to also recognise that sometimes we do need to hear hard truths, and in fact over the years members of this community have been the source of some of the best insights we could have hoped to have received, even if they do sometimes dent one’s resolve in the receiving.
Xero isn’t everyone’s cup of tea - there are great alternatives that we and many others have a lot of respect for - Go FreeAgent! - and some will continue to hold firm that our failings are just appalling, and while I don’t expect this comment will change that for some members, we’re always learning and listening, even if you do give me the right hump sometimes.
Gary Turner
Managing Director, Xero
@garyturner
market failure?
I think it’s also understandable for some community members overlay onto Xero their prevailing expectation that successful accounting software companies are all somehow shysters, and it wouldn’t be the first time that someone had said they thought Xero was turning into another Sage.
That’s definitely not the business we set out to build when we started, and in fact exploiting that evident market failure is a core part of how I think we’ll succeed.
I'm genuinely interested in knowing what market failure you are referring to? You imply Sage......I hope you aren't basing market failure on perusing comments on Aweb.
Gary, I think your comment is quite unfair.
As a software supplier you have to acknowledge that not all of your features are going to be great. Accusing contributors of being trolls because they feel a feature is underdeveloped or not particularly good is rather dismissive.
I have just over 20 clients on Xero and in the main it is a good product. But the payroll just isn’t.
If this is your attitude towards frustrations of your payroll product, I hope to god you never try and develop tax software.
@cheekychappy
I'm not so sure it is unfair. The tone of the criticism above would likely be described as 'troll like' by most people.
Happy to take criticism and negative feedback, even happier when it's civil. I get that this is an internet forum where the flow might naturally lean more towards frankness and brutality compared with a face to face conversation, but still.
Gary Turner
Managing Director, Xero
@garyturner
Fair enough Gary
There was nothing in my post that was uncivil.
I will refrain from airing my frustrations if this bothers you.
Likewise, I will refrain from promoting your good features to my clients. Being small fry, I'm sure this won't bother you.
@cheekychappy!
I'm not saying you were uncivil, apologies if that wasn't clear in my comment above. I was referring mostly to the title of the thread.
Gary Turner
Managing Director, Xero
@garyturner
An (ex) developer's take
Mmm, first of all I'm not sure it is particularly fair to use the words "Sage" and "shysters" apparently linked in the same sentence. Plenty of people on Accountingweb intensely dislike Sage for one reason or another but Sage has a very large base of contented users in the UK and a payroll software product which not only meets the current Payroll Recognition standards, but far exceeded them by meeting HMRC's Accreditation standards which existed until a few years ago. HMRC withdrew Accreditation because only the larger and more dedicated payroll developers seemed capable or willing to do the extensive work required to meet those standards.
The now withdrawn Payroll Accreditation scheme was an order of magnitude harder to satisfy than the Recognition scheme that has replaced it. Most (if not all?) of the major payroll software products available in the UK met the Accreditation requirements including Sage, Moneysoft, Iris, 12Pay, Payroo, Able Internet, amongst about 50 others. I think a lot of those brands disagreed with HMRC's decision to withdraw the Accreditation programme.
When we developed and released 12Pay our initial benchmark for a product that we were prepared to release to the public was one which had gained HMRC Accreditation. This is a non-trivial task. The Accreditation tests included seemingly thousands of boundary condition tests that would stretch the ability of any software to accurately process payroll and correctly handle all the obscure things that a few people in a large user base might attempt. To be honest, if we'd released a product to the mass market, and that product couldn't as a minimum handle the accreditation requirements, then I don't think I would have slept at night. Independent Accreditation by HMRC is no longer available, but (EDIT: actually far less demanding than they used to be!) equivalents to the test data suites on which Accreditation used to be based are available here. So it is still perfectly possible for a developer to self-accredit their software before releasing it. At 12Pay we incorporated the entirety of the HMRC payroll test data into an automatic script that was tested at every product release iteration so that we could always be reasonably sure that we hadn't inadvertently broken our calculation routines (another aid to a comfortable night's sleep).
I'm instinctively sympathetic to Xero for some of the flak that they're receiving here; if they're processing PAYE/NI correctly and filing RTI correctly then I don't suppose there is a great legal downside, £200million of processing isn't actually a great number of payrolls anyway as a customer base take time to build up... But I'm also a little surprised that such a large and presumably wealthy developer chose to release a product that only does part of the job rather than waiting a year and releasing the completed product.
Fair comment
Mmm, first of all I'm not sure it is particularly fair to use the words "Sage" and "shysters" apparently linked in the same sentence.
'Shysters' is strong. I was intending to reflect the general impression I get reading comments about same on here - but that's a poor choice of word in this context.
Gary Turner
Managing Director, Xero
@garyturner
Hang on
Xero's success or failure isn't determined by the functionality of its payroll software.
Xero is my preferred software, I don't use the payroll module though - its too expensive...
...and I'm not sure there's anything better than moneysoft.
Some people just like to get on their high horse(s) and spout.
@RedFive
"I hope you aren't basing market failure on perusing comments on Aweb."
In short, no.
Bigger and different conversation than this thread needs to be further burdened with, happy to share observations after twenty-five years in accounting software some other time.
Gary Turner
Managing Director, Xero
@garyturner
Xero has an aggressive marketing but disappoints in features and usability compared with others. I had a look at the bank recon, very slow unless you have a handful of items.
I am also suspicious of the T&Cs of Yoddle for the bank integration. It's all disclaimers
I am moving/discouraging any client I can from Xero and move to QB or CB.
@neutru
There's a specific feature for handling very large volumes of bank reconciliations.
Cash coding in Xero (video)Help Centre guide
We do now have direct feeds for a number of banks alongside Yodlee provided feeds.
HSBCRBSNatWestSantanderMetro BankBarclays (in beta)Silicon Valley Bank
I appreciate that not everyone was (nor remains) comfortable when Yodlee feeds appeared a while back, but pretty much every accounting software product now uses Yodlee or a Yodlee style method for receiving bank transactions.
Xero : Direct & YodleeSage One : YodleeSage 50 : YodleeKashFlow : YodleeClearbooks : YodleeQBO : Their own version of YodleeFreeAgent : Yodlee and one direct feed with Barclays
The banks have been generally tolerant of Yodlee (even if their terms and conditions say other wise, which is itself a separate conversation), but it's good to see them now beginning to provide direct feed alternatives.
Gary Turner
Managing Director, Xero
@garyturner
"deliberately not targeting accountants"
If a product is aimed at non-accountants, it's *more* important that it's fully featured and robust, not less. Accountants have a fighting chance of noticing what the software's failing to do. Non-accountants have no chance at all.
Seem to be the only one who loves Xero Payroll..
I implemented a full move of all my clients from a Xero and Sage Payroll set up to everything included within Xero, using Xero payroll when it launched in April. I've not had one problem at all.
My clients love it, it's so straightforward to run and get the reports and okay, sick pay and maternity pay are manual but maybe I'm just lucky that not many of my clients actually need this each month. Best of all, saves me posting a journal too and I just need the auto-enrolment to be ready and I'm 100% happy.
I can't fault it other than that and I think if you're using Xero and you're in the cloud but you're still using desktop payroll software then you need to consider looking at Xero payroll.
I guess what Gary means by not aimed at accountants is that there's no central bureau so you have to go into each client rather than an overall look at who's payroll is due and when (this is where Xero Practice Manager jobs comes in..) but I don't think that's something to get hung up about.
I think it's a solid product and his dev team can be proud. Not to mention there's updates and support like every other day so give them a chance or wait till the next tax year perhaps. Cloud payroll is the future.
Why do you need a P60 in February? I could understand your frustration if they still don't have one in 6 weeks time.
Handling of customers concerns
Communication and honesty? I would imagine that if Xero had announced "don't worry, we realise that our software doesn't currently produce x but we're working on it and promise to have it done by 5 April" then that would go a long way to setting minds at rest.
Is there an official response from Xero?
P60s
As I previously commented above we have been working on the P60 and we will be releasing support for 2015/2016 on March 16th. This will include the ability to download as a PDF and also to email them directly to employees as a PDF attachment. In the future we will be looking at making this available in My Payroll so employees can self-service and download and access themselves when they are published by the payroll admin.
Oliver Furniss, Xero (GM, Products)
theres no smoke without fire
Gary means well but he over promises, I really must get to Edgware Road