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I'm thinking of sending
my staff on a midwifery course, so that if a lady client should find her "waters" breaking whilst in my offices, my Associate and assistant would be able to offer the correct expertise.
Mark, I find your article (not you) deeply offensive and insulting of my intelligence. Do you honestly believe that Accountants in practice would even think of giving pension advice?
Come on Mark, you can do a lot better than this.
@Mark
If you write articles prepare to be criticised, just as I am prepared to have my comments blown out of the water.
Thank you for the belly comment. That is years of collaboration. I don't think we can ever reach the top of our game. That's one reason I comment on this site. This is the sort of site where ideas are born.
Pensions No20 in your exhaustive list. Not liking with some things that are going on in our profession is not the same as being unaware, Mark.
Don't flatter yourself too much, Mark, I comment on many other posts.
Description?
Collaborate?
I would have thought refer would have been a better description?
Anyway its similar.
I often refer clients to an IFA I know (and who is also a client), no monetary gain, I just know he's good and will have the clients best interests in mind.
I refer clients to a local bookkeeper in some instances, this works well as I get work referred to me from him.
I've also referred several clients to other clients where they have needed a particular service - asset finance, invoice finance, debt collection, web design, SEO, property rental, recruitment, will writing to name a few. That's one of the benefits of having a good mix of clients, when a question is asked "Do you know anyone who does xxx" I'll often be able to say yes and recommend someone.
I have access to tax and employment law specialists through the fee protection I provide to clients on a whole of practice basis.
Not so sure I'd want to collaborate on a formal basis though.
Overall though I agree that if your clients see as their 'go to' person (I hate that term) it increases your credibility and worth to them.
Rhubarb and yet more rhubarb
Your list of about 30 specialisations - some of these could be dealt with by any adequately qualified accountant.
Obviously you don't think any of us are quite up to it. In which case you have a very limited view of our profession. Either that or you don't think that any of us can read books.
Rhubarb and more rhubarb part 2
In which case what you are implying is that the qualifications and accounting qualifications which are held by most accountants are precious little good and should be disregarded.
Mos ACCA and ACA qualifications include some of the specialisations you are saying should be referred out. In which case, there is no point in getting the qualification in the first place, is there?
Basically what you are saying is that accountants are quite useless and need to refer clients elsewhere for the most basic of services. Something which I had long suspected anyway. Thanks for concerning my suspicions.
I also
accept your apology that your article gives the impression of the "obvious", which actually was why I posted in the first place.
Let's not attack Mark
I read the article and was not offended at all. I have referred clients to most of these external professions where it is in their best interest to get specialist advice or I consider it beyond my capabilities to advise. Mark is right that it is sometimes easy to fob clients off rather than recognise that you can both gain out of a referral. Many reading this forum are not as experienced and you can often tell from the type of questions asked from start ups etc. johnjenkins is clearly very experienced and I do trust his opinions having read many of them, but then again I also enjoy Mark's articles. There is room for both of you on this forum.
Why do some people.....
Is it not the case that the most important thing a professional accountant needs to know is what he or she can't do?
I read Mark's prognostications because they provoke a little thought. Some of those thoughts I find relevant/helpful, some I do not. But I'm utterly amazed that some posters react so badly to Mark's post. I didn't detect a single word in it from which anything other than a positive desire to be helpful could be a reasonable conclusion.
Specialisms
A good article I thought and it's interesting seeing all the various specialisms written down, a reminder perhaps of where accountants CAN help their clients more than the usual compliance work, it got me thinking, which is probably the point of the article.
I consider myself an 'adequately qualified accountant' and for that very reason I wouldn't dream of tackling the majority of those areas listed . Not only would I not enjoy it, I would need to do an awful lot of research, it's unlikely to be an effective use of my time/recovery, ACCA and my PII would hang me out to dry if I messed up and to be honest there's people who would simply do a far better job than me.
Like KA I also refer work to other clients or people that I know (no commission expected or agreed), however I always put a large verbal disclaimer that I can't guarantee the work of 3rd parties, sometimes I feel that it's almost better not to refer work than to refer it to someone who messes things up, which then has the potential to sour our previous good relationship. It's for this same reason that I would never sign up to some of the well-known breakfast networking groups, where everyone is expected to refer work to the only relevant person in the room. It would probably take me a year and several social evenings out with that person before I was comfortable to refer work on that basis.
I would suggest that the 'practical' difference between 'refer' and 'collaborate' is that when you refer work you effectively wash your hands of that work onto someone else, when you collaborate then you stay involved in the matter somehow, either by staying in the loop on all communication or by pretending to offer that service in-house (e.g. white-label services).
There's something to be said for each method, personally I stick to what I'm good at. For example, we're about to lay solid wood flooring on the ground floor of our house, it's within my knowledge, I'm good at DIY, I can watch the youtube video's, we've previously floor-boarded our attic office and have all the tools, however at present it's not a good use (financially) of my time, my weekends are valuable time with the family, and a professional would do a far neater and quicker job. In my mind the same logic applies.
Overall I thought Mark was quite clear with his message, he differentiated large and small firms. I also realise that there are some people who have a particular background or interest in a specialism may feel that they are able to offer that advice rather than outsource the work, that may be the case with JohnJenkins, for example. And that is absolutely fine.
Anyone who has provided expert witness services though will be fully aware of the considerable dangers of making comments or provide advice on anything that isn't within your particular expertise, I apply this concept throughout my work, possibly to be on the safe side.
R&D - needs to be considered higher - as you probably won't know
I agree with the sentiment. But the comment "larger claims" assumes a non-specialist adviser can spot what should be a larger claim.
Even some alleged specialists in large firms cannot, so best to check!
Examples - all my uplifts
Medium sized firm - reviewing SME for years found initially £0 and on prompting £16k eligible - increased to average £1.8 million per annum
Top 10 Firm reviewing SME - initially found £0 on prompting found £50k per annum that was "not worth their bother" - just undertaken their 6th year at an average of £2 million per annum
Top 10 Firm reviewed large co's internal claims for years - concurred £300k per annum - increased to average £200 million per annum
Two top 10 firms reviewing large co for years - found between zero and £5m per annum increased to over £20 million per annum
You need to check - But you need it checked by the right people! This is not an advert - I am oversubscribed as it is.
I'm supporting Mark on this
What he describes is exactly what I do.
I recognise my limitations - and stick to what I do well. So when these other issues come up I refer the client to somone trusted. In my case I mostly refer to Baker Tilly who are geared up to support small practices and are happy to keep me in the loop.
So the client gets the best advice and hopefully I earn their respect for putting them in the hands of an expert.
The only part I fall down on is with financial advice - after 20 years, still haven't found an IFA I would trust.
What? No Sales and Marketing Specialists?
Give us a break, Mark!
#26 Sales and Marketing specialists
It's pretty likely that a majority of every Accountant's clients could gain by improving their selling and marketing. It's just as unlikely that expert Accountants are also Sales and Marketing experts. And it's highly unlikely I'd ever think of offering my clients Accountancy advice myself - I'd recommend an Accountant. So why not think of working together occasionally in this area too?
I recently gave the 'other' David Winch some advice on his promotional video. Here's what he said https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/group-thread/video-feedback-lessons-learned
But they are not expected to be - they are on the rest
David,
I would grant you that most accountants are not sales and marketing specialists - but they are also not the place clients go to in order to find sales and marketing. They are the places they expect to find at least most of the other 25.
Or (friendly joke) was this a marketing specialist ploy to get exposure of your skill set, no matter what the subject!
Kind regards
Nigel
I Wouldn't Either!
Nigel, I completely agree with you that clients wouldn't go to their Accountant for Sales and Marketing advice.
But if they went for Accountancy advice and the Accountant realised they also needed Sales and Marketing help, what then?
I go to the opticians to have my eyes tested and possibly to get new glasses. But if their examination revealed the early symptoms of diabetes and they referred me to a specialist in that field, how could I be anything but grateful? They'd have taken a holistic interest in my good health and well being.
Shouldn't we all do something similar for all our clients?
I wouldn't either
What I am getting from this conversation is that accountants can't actually do the job. What accountants are signing up to is doing as little as possible.
No wonder this country is in such chaos.
Surely suggesting alternatives is different than collaborating
David,
I intended my point to be that Mark has provided a list of items that accountants could and perhaps should collaborate with specialists to provide better service to the clients.
If I were to note a client was not getting the exposure their capabilities deserved then I think I too would suggest some marketing advice might be needed.
But it wouldn't then be something I would be collaborating on or as I saw this proposing of outsourcing of what might be deemed to be part of an "accountancy skill set" to specialists.
Marketing recommendation wouldn't be collaboration any more than it would be if they were to comment on running their car fleet and I were to say "I have just had a good deal on business rentals from XX car manufacturer". That is not really 'collaborating/ in the sense of the article, just my opinion.
@TaxTeddy
You're spot on and therein lies my beef. It's what Accountants in practice do. It's part of our ethos. So to be told that's what we could be doing leaves me thinking that there are Accountants out there that really don't know what Accounting is all about.
First Choice Insurance Consultants. George Groves 01438 740340. You won't meet a more genuine person or a more helpful team. No, I don't get commission.
You're not alone Mark!
If you can't say something positive JJ then say nothing at all please. I am not attempting to subvert your right to free speech but constant carping is a pain in the [***].
Whilst I have a "third party services" list which ties in nearly 1 to 1 with Mark's I don't have an IHT specialist on it and this could benefit quite a few clients. I have a forex broker on it, this one has saved clients a total of about £10k in the past 5 years through avoiding the big bank's rip-oof charges.
Back in 2009 when I set up my business Mark's list would have been invaluable.
@mr. mischief
What is this site for? The Mark Lee appreciation society? Marketing specialists stage for spiel?
Perhaps it might be for Accountants (clue- accountingweb) to make comments, post threads, agree or disagree with articles.
If Mark's list doesn't come natural to Accountants in practice then they shouldn't be in practice. Is that positive enough for you? The business world need to know that when they go and see an Accountant they will get sound advice, that's why the Accountancy profession has remained at the top. Just look what has happened to the banking system. Look what has happened to HMRC. All the people with knowledge are no longer in the right job. I would really hate that to happen to our profession.
Specifics
@Donald6000 - out of curiousity which of the list do you regard as the 'most basic of services' and which do you (for example) have the necessary skills, expertise and qualifications to deal with yourself? I assume you'll be ruling out any of the regulated areas, e.g. pensions, legal, mortgage, insurance, insolvency etc. If you don't want to comment about yourself then how about the specific ones that you think a 'typical' accountant should know?
@JJ - as with most professions (and non-professions), there will always be those who perhaps are lacking in skills, knowledge, experience or development in what is a changing market. Would you agree that if nothing else, that this article is useful in educating those people and helping them to realise their weaknesses and perhaps identifying areas for improvement?
Sheepy306
Thank you for your comments.
I don't practise anymore for money by the way; I do voluntary work and advise people.
In my career, I am an ex Revenue officer, therefore I do tax. I have done US tax and other nations taxation systems whilst working for good firms. I have also done company secretarial. I am legally qualified to Diploma of English Law standard (Open university) and could therefore make a confident stab at both courts representation and advocacy and I could prepare and have prepared cases, ie for landlords including money claims and eviction processes. I have knowledge of Inheritance Tax. I can prepare accounts. I can prepare computerised and manual tax returns. I have done insolvency cases in association with licensed insolvency specialists.
These are the reasons why I am turning round and looking aghast at what it is that accountants are supposed not to be able to do because they don't feel that they need to do them or cannot be asked to go into the library and read the books, or get more qualifications. While I am at it, let's scrap the accountancy examinations until and unless the people taking them can do the jobs.
@sheepy306
I'm not so sure I like or agree with where you are going, although you have made the point well. Too well, in fact. To know that there are people in practice that need the substance of Mark's article to be able to advise business properly makes me shudder.
Please tell me what is changing in our market. Either a cash book or computerised system, correct data has still to be inputted Do not believe all the hype that these marketing gurus keep throwing at you. The only REAL thing that has changed is HMRC. They have got rid of people with knowledge and they would like to get rid of Accountants with knowledge. Eventually we will take over the admin of HMRC and they will be exterminated.
JohnJenkins
John you are spot on right.
In my HMRC district I was the only one with repayments claims specialism and knowledge of minature PAYE schemes (nannies, domestics, etc). They got rid of me absolutely years ago (30 years ago in fact). Since when I have been able to get accountancy qualifications and legal qualifications and am still an adviser. They won't get rid of me whatever they do and I suspect others feel the same. There is no software that can compensate for the brains of a properly skilled accountant with polymath abilities.
This is all to do with deskilling the UK workforce so that we can all be little [***] and zero hours contract workers. Welcome to the UK of the near future.
You don't need
to go anywhere for sales and marketing advice. Just wait for the phone to ring. At least one of your nuisance calls in a day will be just that. The amount of times I could have saved pounds just by saying yes please, and the beauty of it is they don't even know my circumstances. Now that's magic.
A concrete example
This is just one example from the list, but in my view it applies generically to most of the list.
I often get clients where the previous accountants have overlooked capital allowances, typically on integral features. My specialist on the list is C A Tax Solutions Limited. All new clients get the list, all existing ones get an updated version twice a year.
When I identify historic capital we can claim, I offer clients the option of me doing it or C A Tax doing it. But their minimum fee is £2k, so for small claims it is a no-brainer they opt for me doing it.
The largest recent claim was £85k and I advised the client that they were free to choose me, but I felt the specialist surveyor / valuer report from C A tax might carry more weight albeit at higher fee cost. The client chose that option.
No doubt the knockers will find some major flaw in all of this, should possibly feel I should just have taken a punt on the £85k one myself, banked the fee and said nothing about C A Tax.
Fair enough. I feel I offered the client a choice. In my view the work C A did would pretty much stop any thought of an enquiry stone dead before it even got started. Maybe my punt would also, but there again maybe not.
Agree with Mr Mischief
I get quite a few collaborative referrals from advisers, though most of mine are client to client but some through advisers.
In general the ones that are consistent in eligibility level and potentially comfortable for the advisers to do once the level is set, I simply get up to date. The client then decides us or their accountant going forward, most stick with me.
Typically it depends on how much we increased the claim in the first place and the value of the potential risk of it being anywhere near that wrong again in the future.
If I have increased a claim 10 fold over a non-specialist then they will likely stick with me if the fee is a fraction of this. If I had simply increased it by 10%, (such as the smaller CAs mentioned by Mr M ) then it typically would not be a client that would represent a good opportunity cost for me.
This is actually how it also worked within the Big4 where I operated R&D Tax. We were supposed to do all R&D claims, in practice some partners did not refer their clients believing they could do as good a job as the specialist team, This was rarely if ever true and those where they were close were far outweighed by those they would have missed by a mile.
@mr. mischief
Had your post been today I would have thought he won't catch many out.
"I often get clients where the previous Accountants have overlooked capital allowances".
@Kent. I think I would rather be a "grumpy" old Accountant who is good at his job than one of the "younger" Echalons who overlook CA's.
Misc matters replying to John
Had your post been today I would have thought he won't catch many out.
"I often get clients where the previous Accountants have overlooked capital allowances".
@Kent. I think I would rather be a "grumpy" old Accountant who is good at his job than one of the "younger" Echalons who overlook CA's.
Donald replies:
An accountant who overlooks capital allowances - Yeah right.
I am a grumpy weird old man - what of it?
Accountants
I have not met many Accountants who say they cannot do a task or job, most Accountants over reach, but it does not matter they never get punished by Clients, they know to much about thier clients, and HMRC are worse at identifying poor accountants.
Simple
A wise man knows he is not perfect whereas a fool knows he is perfect.
Whenever I get a client whose business owns a commercial freehold property, I ask the accountants in a handover letter what they have claimed for integral features where this is not leaping out of the balance sheet or tax computation.
Very often the answer is nothing. Cue a claim for 10% to 30% of the value of the building depending on its nature, which generally results in a significant tax repayment and hence no reason for the new client to wonder if the switch was the right thing to do.
On every single occasion so far, the previous accountant had been qualified for at least 25 years and quite simply, in my view, not kept up to date and "gone to sleep" on capital allowances.
And don't even get me started on research and development tax credits!
Reprise: Fools and wise men
A wise man knows he is not perfect whereas a fool knows he is perfect.
Whenever I get a client whose business owns a commercial freehold property, I ask the accountants in a handover letter what they have claimed for integral features where this is not leaping out of the balance sheet or tax computation.
Very often the answer is nothing. Cue a claim for 10% to 30% of the value of the building depending on its nature, which generally results in a significant tax repayment and hence no reason for the new client to wonder if the switch was the right thing to do.
On every single occasion so far, the previous accountant had been qualified for at least 25 years and quite simply, in my view, not kept up to date and "gone to sleep" on capital allowances.
And don't even get me started on research and development tax credits!
No, what you are saying is that the accountants have been dummies, or have no heard of CPD, or who are not proper accountants at all. That's not the same as outsourcing. If I got such a client, I'd make damn sure that I was on the ball about C.A's, But then being ex Revenue, I would be ashamed if I did not do this.
No I am not perfect; I just try to do my best.