VAT flat rate scheme: Dos and don’ts

 article definition -
"Your VAT taxable turnover is everything that you sell during the year that is liable for VAT. It includes standard, reduced rate or zero rate sales or other supplies. The scheme excludes the actual VAT that you charge".....surely the rules are that the figures INCLUDE the actual vat
charged ????

No, to decide if your turnover is low enough to join the scheme you use VAT exclusive figures.  But after that you always use inclusive, for working out the VAT and deciding if you have to leave.

I starnd corrected/ I withdraw to my shell/  good article-  flat does cause confusion and misunderstanding/  

:)

I had to stop reading the article as the grammar and spelling mistakes were setting my OCD off...

Comment deleted...

What is the current thinking on Bank Interest Received for a business on the Flat Rate Scheme.

At one point HMRC were insisting that this was part of VATable income for Flat Rate purposes.

Is that still their stance?

i gather that bank interest received now has been EXCLUDED from the FRS liability calculation.  Is that correct ?

What about other receipts such as

* dividend and preference share interest

* sale of shareholding [ shares held as investment say 1000 BT !! for example ] irrespective of whether a gain or loss is made - are the gross proceeds to be included in the FRS liabilty calc

* compensation - bank paying you £ 100 for fixing one of their 'errors'

* insurance claim recoveries

just a few that spring to mind, so thanks for any subsequent responses.  After all, reality of FRS on a single sales invoice is the utopia, but not what most would expect in a SME trading

Surely receipts and supplies outside the scope of VAT are excluded from FRS turnover?

What about supplies of services to EU 'VAT' registered customers? These are outside the scope of VAT, and mostly subject to the VAT reverse charge. Presumably these are also left out of then FRS calculation?

The article says: "So the VAT flat rate scheme might not be right for your business if: ....

•  You make a lot of ... exempt sales."

The article also says that exempt sales are excluded from the calculation of FRS VAT, which is surely right.  As, in the ordinary scheme, you have to excluse purchases relating to exempt sales, surely exempt sales are IRRELEVANT to a decision about FRS? 

If you are a post office (5% FRS) and you have £2,000 of SR income and £8,000 of exempt income, under the FRS you will be due to pay £500.  Exempt sales increase the FRS VAT.

However I believe you don't include them when deciding if you can join... but that's off the top of my head.

"if your supplies are outside the scope of VAT, leave them out of your flat rate turnover.This will depend on the place of supply of the services - see Notice 741 Place of supply of services."

See: http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.por...

Exempt supplies should be included in turnover (but at least you're spared a partial exemption calculation).

Particularly for a sole trader, isn't it the person who is registered, not the business, so you have to watch out for other income particularly letting income which might well get caught as turnover.

There doesn't seem to be a clear definition of this and I note that HMRC use as an example they would allow to use the FRS; a husband and wife, each with their own business sharing one premises.

I have a client that is a ltd. co owning a 49% share of an LLP, which in itself is VAT registered under the standard scheme. The company is offering different services to the LLP.

I'm assuming that the ltd co, which is just about to register for VAT would be precluded from the FRS as being "closely connected" to the LLP?

Can anyone confirm treatment of Rental income (from a few Buy to Lets)for a FRS registered sole trader with a completely different business please?

I was going to make the same point re: exempt sales included in turnover for FRV calculations.

Is excluded I believe unless the trader is actively managing it ie moving it amongst banks to get the best rate.  Just putting on deposit is not a trade.

Regarding Henry Banwall's question - it will depend on the structure of the busineses's.

Al these comments illustrate how complicated or ill defined this is. Bank interest etc. is still included for purpose of computing total turnover and determining eligibility for staying in FRS but it not liable to VAT.

However, the fundamental problem is as illustrated in the 1st paragraph in comparing the % to be applied.

12% of 120 is, correctly computed at 14.4%

BUT on the normal basis VAT would be £20 which = 16.67% of 120 NOT 20%.

The comparison is therefore;

                                             of gross t/o

Flat rate scheme                        12%               =    £14.40 

Normal basis                              16.67%          =    £20

Accounting - we have many clients who use FRS and we instruct then to account for VAT in the normal way and then compute VAT to pay on FRS and show the difference as "VAT flat rate difference". That will clearly show the gain or loss on using FRS and enable usage of FRS to be monitored.

Another minefield for businesses.

Peter Lashmar

Lashmars tax Accountants

Tel   01590-688838

e     peter@lashmars.co.uk

My understanding is that you include the following in the FRS sales to which the flat rate % is applied:

a) exempt sales

b) rental income

but you exclude:

c) sales made where the place of supply is outside the UK.

As far as I'm aware all vatable supplies are included for calculating your FRS VAT. That is:

• Standard Supplies
• Exempt Supplies
• Zero rated supplies

Rental income for Buy to Lets or any other residential dwelling is zero rated and therefore is included in the FRS calculation.

To avoid, you may want to put rental property in joint names, thus different legal entity (a partnership) and therefore not within a sole traders FRS turnover.

I thought Bank Interest is excluded as surely it should always have been as it is outside of scope.

Only since Thexton/Fanfield (First Tier Tribunal) and that was only in the last year or so.

Yes, I'm aware it is a recent change but cannot understand why it was treated as a taxable supply in the first place. I guess that might have been why HMRC lost the tribunal?

to Constantly confused/  my apology for upsetting you/ this is a discussion site ?/ not a

lesson in english/ try  Wikipedia

... but nothing has been said about the fact you cannot go on FRS if you use cash accounting for VAT. You must be on invoice accounting, so whilst the building trade is generous at 9.5%, if you are wating 90 - 120 days for your money (not uncommon) then the lower payment may not be as enticing if you have no income from which to pay it!

Happy to be corrected if I misread it, but that was what it stated on the online VAT registration I completed this week as mentioned by me here:

http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/group-thread/vat-registration 

I have been on several VAT lectures where it was suggested that, bizarrely, the proceeds from the sale of a car in the business would also be included as turnover for the FRS calculation !

Fact or fiction ?

There is a cash based turnover method you can use with the flat rate scheme which is similar to the cash accounting scheme. Tried to post the link to HMRC website but it didn't work. It's chapter 9 of the flat rate scheme for small business, if that's any help?

Yes the rules for cash accounting actually do require the sales proceeds of a property that's been rented out or a car to be subjected to Flat Rate VAT liability.

The only concession is that apparently HMRC will let a business retrospectively exit the Flat Rate Scheme to escape the punitive VAT liability arising on disposal of a rental property.

So much for a "simplified" scheme of VAT accounting - hidden costs.

A "simplified" VAT accounting scheme that has guidance that runs to some 41 pages.

I was pointing out grammar and spelling issues in the article, unless you wrote the article I don't understand why you are suggesting I have criticised you...

I was struck by OGA's comment that you can't use cash accounting and the flat rate scheme.

Looking at section 9 of VAT Notice 733, it states: "Apply the flat rate percentage to the VAT inclusive supplies for which you have been paid in the accounting period." It then goes on to define "paid". I suspect that this is just a very slightly different definition of "paid" for FRS compared to "paid" for the regular cash accounting scheme.

... what it said on the online VAT registration application, next one I'll look more closely!