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Is Working Together now a past dream?

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14th Apr 2015
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Last July the article ‘Should Working Together Be Disbanded?’ touched a nerve with many AccountingWEB members, says Jennifer Adams.

The overwhelming response to the question was ‘yes’ as Working Together (WT) was thought to be of little interest to agents as any comments or recommendations made were perceived not to be acted upon by HMRC. Nine months on and WT is still with us but in a different format. There have been face-to-face meetings but on a regional basis rather than local. In March, Regional Agent Events were held at 15 centres across the country from Birmingham to Portsmouth, Exeter to Northern Ireland and places in between. Initially WT meetings were for designated representatives of the professions but this has been expanded with in excess of 43,000 agents being invited to the regional events. Despite some of the meetings being held after work, as with WT meetings, the take up was disappointing low such that only 400 attended overall, the maximum number at any one event being 15, the minimum three, the average eight.

Whatever agents’ concerns, HMRC remains resolute in its aim for full digitalisation which includes WT, looking at the use of conference calls and social media going forward. It was stressed that face-to-face meetings were still on the agenda but there is no doubt that the lack of interaction from agents plus cost has meant a distinct re-evaluation of the service. It must be only a matter of time before such meetings are no more.

Interestingly, HMRC believes that making WT digital will be an opportunity to reach the more junior levels of staff which might not necessarily have been the case with the local face-to-face meetings. This is something that firms need to be aware of and plan for on a practical basis.

The regional meetings were held days after the Budget but the remit was not to talk about specific issues (e.g. no more tax returns) but how HMRC and agents could “engage in a more digital way”. It was not the fault of the HMRC event representatives but these same questions have been asked and answered many times – “what makes it hard to use digital?”; “ Are there particular issues where digital wouldn’t be appropriate?”, “What sort of things have to be done face -to-face”, and “What would make agents lives easier going forward?”.

Attendees were asked for a ‘wish list’ in response to each question, putting answers on ‘sticky notes’ with the promise that the ‘wishes’ would be collated and presented to the higher echelons within HMRC. It was disappointing to be asked again and the vast majority of the wishes had already been presented in the past. Nevertheless, despite the same questions, the event was a valuable opportunity to reiterate agents concerns.

At the Exeter WT meeting an agent was forthright in his opinion that HMRC’s strategy of instruction online was giving the impression to ‘customers’ that tax is straightforward. By its very nature YouTube can only be a basic overview but the impression was being given that to comply with the Taxes Acts all you needed to do was follow the content. It was appreciated that the text needed to be understandable to all but the view was that this could be potentially dangerous. When an accountant places text online or in any written material they are required to include a disclaimer that the text is for general use only as each individual taxpayer has specific needs and as such requires advice tailored to those needs. Such a disclaimer is not to be found anywhere in HMRC’s online text and from the reaction of the HMRC representatives this was something that had not been considered. The agent made a telling comment that “It would serve HMRC right if a ‘customer’ sued them for misleading advice”.

Another agent complained that from what he could see HMRC was looking to replace the work of accountants. His comment was that they were looking to teach and instruct and surely that was not their job.  He was incensed that HMRC was in his words ‘wasting taxpayers’ money’ on writing screeds of text that by its very nature was biased towards HMRC’s take on the law, being written by HMRC employees. We have all taken on clients who want us to do only part of the work rather than a complete package. For example, agents are instructed to complete the company accounts but the client, who has read HMRC’s text online, wants to do their own personal returns thinking that they are saving money without any appreciation of what could go wrong.

Despite agents’ reservations, HMRC is intent in expanding its digital instruction and that includes instruction for agents. So far the only e-learning course for agents online is on the subject of resolving disputes although there are transcripts of two webinars that have taken place. The text is straightforward but pitched at the wrong level as there are no sections of any act quoted for example. As such it might be of more interest to ‘customers’ than members of the profession.

At the WT it was confirmed that HMRC is looking to produce webinars in conjunction with the professional bodies so we can only hope that the text may become more technical in future.

Despite the WT events’ remit being non-Budget the final presentation was given by an HMRC representative who worked with what were termed ‘partners’ (e.g. colleges, charities). We were shown a slide of a mobile phone app currently being used which sends information such as the copy of an expense receipt directly to HMRC. This is something that HMRC is actively working on with third party software providers and must be what Mr Osborne had in mind when he announced his ‘no tax return’ policy.

After the Exeter WT meeting, the HMRC representative emailed copies of the slides and most importantly this article written last month by HMRC’s director general for business tax, Jim Harra.

I would urge every member to read it, download and keep for future reference.

The majority of the article makes for uncomfortable reading, for example:

  • We want to be able to differentiate between the agents that do offer value-added services and those that don’t
  • We won’t offer poor quality services to agents who don’t provide this value added approach for their clients – everyone will get a good standard of service
  • Exactly how we work with agents will vary, though, according to their needs, their compliance history and the value they add to the administration of the tax system
  • We’ll be giving agents recognition for the value-added work they’re doing, and we believe their clients will be willing to pay for this, because they will feel the benefit of a lighter touch from HMRC

This article started with the comment that many accountants do not perceive the value of WT. The minutes of the December 2014 CIOT/ATT Working Together sub-meeting and of the September 2014 meeting show that their representatives appreciate the situation but point 4.2 of the December meeting minutes is very telling – a resolution to “To press HMRC to engage with the professional bodies regarding the new digital solutions rather than merely present the final product”, must mean that in the committee’s view this is not happening.

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Replies (24)

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By johnjenkins
14th Apr 2015 15:58

That's all

it ever was. Just a pipe dream.

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By mikefleming3028
14th Apr 2015 17:15

The first working together initiative

I was part of the first working together group in the North East and in very short order I came to the conclusion that attending these meetings was a total and utter waste of time. The corpse that was Working Together should have be laid to rest years ago but HMRC refused to give it a decent burial as it was needed  to be paraded every now and again to help legitimize their "obligation to consult". What was left has corrupted beyond recognition and  such should be laid to rest with the minimum of fuss, RIP.

 

  

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By Ken Howard
14th Apr 2015 18:47

Pointless

I went to a couple of local ones when they first started and quickly realised they were just wasting everyone's time.  The HMRC reps seemed genuine enough but it was clear that they had no real power and were just reporting back up the chain, no doubt to be completely ignored.  

I found them very similar to governer's meetings at my local school, where the same thing happened - lots of smiley faces around the table, but at the end of the day, those in power would do what they want anyway having gone through the motion of pretend consultation.

Considering the fiasco of the IR35 working group, that came up with the pathetic fiasco of the risk assessment test, that only lasted a couple of years to be quickly scrapped - these working together initiatives are just wasting everyone's time.

At the end of the day the politicians and HMRC will do what they want.  It will inevitably be a failure.  The personnel involved will have moved on (no doubt with promotion).  New people will change it all, solving some issues and causing some new ones, and so the cycle relentless repeats itself.

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By johnjenkins
15th Apr 2015 10:05

I have a feeling

in my water that agent strategy (even with all the money spent on it) will go the same way. I can't seem to reconcile "agent strategy" with "no more tax returns".  

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By Michael C Feltham
15th Apr 2015 12:32

OK: but not after the first bite!

It started off well, or seemingly.

However it has been a joke for some time now.

Our local group's delegated WT rep, a hugely experienced now mainly retired FCA, reports each to each group meeting and has just about given up..............

 

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By taxbakbristol
15th Apr 2015 13:22

All I want from HMRevenue & Customs

is to answer the phone , answer my letters and act in some semblance of that of an Organ of the State.

Thanks (4)
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By johnjenkins
15th Apr 2015 13:54

The only

organs that spring to mind when dealing with HMRC are testicles.

Thanks (2)
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By TaxMatters
15th Apr 2015 14:49

Total waste of time

These working groups and consultation groups are nothing more than cosmetic. I have had the same experience as Ken Howard. If the present experience is anything to go by the day that HMRC start listening will be the day that the world comes to an end. I am detecting an arrogance in their attitude which I have never encountered before and that is putting it mildly. We have no option but to deal with them but it is no longer a pleasant experience. As for accessing more junior levels of HMRC staff that can only turn out to be a nightmare. The so called senior members appear to know precious little - this is a disaster waiting to happen.

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By David Gordon FCCA
15th Apr 2015 15:21

i must commend my colleagues

 

 I thought all the comments about the "Working Together" were in the circumstances, exceedingly polite.

 Testicles, and Horse Manure, do at least have some practical use.

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Replying to SXGuy:
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By leon0001
15th Apr 2015 16:37

No, not horses.....

...male oxen.

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By jonsa
15th Apr 2015 16:33

Regional Meetings

So 43,000 were invited to these meetings.  That is a huge number of representatives.  I was not invited.  Is there anyone on AccountingWeb who was and if so was it because they were a delegate for WT before?

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Ken Howard
15th Apr 2015 18:12

No, not invited

jonsa wrote:

So 43,000 were invited to these meetings.  That is a huge number of representatives.  I was not invited.  Is there anyone on AccountingWeb who was and if so was it because they were a delegate for WT before?

It's a little harsh to criticise poor attendance when it seems very few invitations were sent out.  If it was only 4,300, that's a very poor number.  ALL known agents should have been informed and invited if they actually want a half decent attendance.  I wonder what criteria came up with the 4,300 who got the invite?

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Jennifer Adams
By Jennifer Adams
15th Apr 2015 19:00

!

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Jennifer Adams
By Jennifer Adams
15th Apr 2015 19:04

  

!

 

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Jennifer Adams
By Jennifer Adams
15th Apr 2015 19:09

There were 15 events...

the HMRC rep told me 43,000 and said that the invites were expanded to non WT's. What the criteria was she didnt say...

 

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By vinylnobbynobbs
16th Apr 2015 09:55

Invited

I am a WT rep and was invited and did find the session very interesting andI do hope it points HMRC in the right direction as to what we want. 

WT is very frustrating but it is up to us as agents to continue to have meetings, ad face to face meetings, with HMRC to put forward our views and problems.  If we allow WT to wither and die, HMRC will railroad much more onto us than they already do.  Lets face it the tax profession seems quite complacent about how HMRC foist legislation and working practices onto us.  At the end of the day, we are the ones who have to make it work.

I represent a professional body but locally, and nationally, I have had very very litte interaction with the association.  At no time has anyone approached me from another practice, or the association to raise a point.  I send them minutes and more often than not I don't even get an acknowledgement.

Consequently I feel that I am representing our practise, but as  I face the day to day problems we all encounter with HMRC, and they are never ending, I like to feel that I am representing all taxation professionals, like me, who are in the front line.

 

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By johnjenkins
16th Apr 2015 09:33

HMRC will do

what they want when they want. All WT does is voice our concerns so that HMRC can find ways of skipping round doing what they should be doing (acting on our concerns).

So if we don't interact with them, they've only got themselves to blame when it all goes pear shaped (and it will).

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By AndrewV12
16th Apr 2015 09:34

Relax nothing changes. same old same old, someone has to write up the cheque stubs.

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By Banzai
16th Apr 2015 11:47

the latest Briefing on "HMRC

the latest Briefing on "HMRC's plan on working with tax agents" is the most patronising document I have read in a long time! 

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By BRIGHTAMEDODAH
16th Apr 2015 21:12

Agent Account Manager

As soon as the AAM was introduced in the WT and recently withdrawn the death of the WT is a matter of time. I go to the meeting for the NW London group and HMRC will not even provide car parking facility for the agents.

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Replying to Markm1972:
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By leon0001
17th Apr 2015 13:12

Have I got this right - AAM withdrawn?

BRIGHTAMEDODAH wrote:

As soon as the AAM was introduced in the WT and recently withdrawn the death of the WT is a matter of time. I go to the meeting for the NW London group and HMRC will not even provide car parking facility for the agents.

According to HMRC website, the facility still exists.

 

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By ver1tate
17th Apr 2015 10:36

Working together

I went to the WTs in Glasgow for several years.

In many ways they were similar to the PAC. Many accountants attending in order to install loopholes which they could later sell to their clients.The largest number of attendees in the Glasgow WTs came from the one firm of acccountants which processed the accounts for the majority of crime families in Glasgow. Do not tell me they were there to assist HMRC.

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By ver1tate
17th Apr 2015 10:44

Regional Meetings

I also represent a professional body but locally, and nationally, I have had very very litte interaction with the association.  At no time has anyone approached me from another practice, or the association to raise a point 

Jonsa. Like you, I was a representative for many years, and did not receive an invite.

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Jennifer Adams
By Jennifer Adams
17th Apr 2015 18:58

Confirmation that the invite was to all....

Following comments above as to who was invited I emailed the HMRC rep and her reply was as follows:

Hi Jennifer

Thanks for your email asking for clarification about the numbers in your article. The events were not organised by formal invitation and were open to all agents. Emails were sent to all those agents who were members of a Working Together group informing them.  We also blogged, tweeted and mentioned the events in Agent Update. We also worked closely with a number of representative bodies who publicised the events through their websites, newsletters, emails to their members and tweets.  

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