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Is your view on Brexit emotional or considered ?

28th Feb 2016
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I was on holiday last week with British and American. At breakfast on the Yanks asked my wife "Did Trump win yesterday ? "whilst I ran over to an English guest and announced that we have a referendum date. So the clock is ticking and the PM is sweating.

It seems to me to boil down to 2 main themes : 

Firstly , is a country that cannot control its border policy truly sovereign ?

Secondly , if the above question is enough of a  problem to leave, are the risks of a leap into the unknown worth it ?

But is it really an unknown ? After all plenty of trade is done outwith the EU  , and as or expertise is in specialist manufacturing , know-how and luxury goods will our customers suddenly vanish and purchase from elsewhere because we are not in the EU ? I think not

As the deadline approaches there is a greater chance of an external shock that is EU-related swaying opinion. The EU won't supply good news in that time, trust me

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Replies (18)

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By User deleted
29th Feb 2016 22:47

All business is risk ...

.... the bigger the risk, the bigger the potential rewards.

Possible outcome of Brexit, EU collapses and begs us back on our terms!

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Norman Younger
By Norman Younger
01st Mar 2016 08:36

Risk and reward

You are correct but in this case I believe that we are not simply seeking a reward , such as improved prosperity , we are seeking escape a looming disaster as the EU sails towards the iceberg simply to achieve a political dream of its self-serving masters

 

 

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By cheekychappy
01st Mar 2016 09:11

Emotional and Considered

It's a big decision and emotion will naturally play a part in the decision making process.

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Stepurhan
By stepurhan
01st Mar 2016 14:49

Easy answer

If someone's view disagrees with mine, it is emotional. If someone's view agrees with mine, it is considered.

At least that is how a lot of the discussions that I have seen are coming across. There also appears to be a lot of things stated as fact without any supportive proof (on both sides). As few people will be willing to do research on their own, the vote is likely to come down to which side presents better, which is less than ideal for anyone.

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Norman Younger
By Norman Younger
01st Mar 2016 15:57

Agree to disagree ?

Not sure if I agree with you (no pun intended) as it all depends on the basis of your opinion , which you should recognise as either emotional or considered . However , there is not necessarily a disconnect ; ponder this ...

A country is unable to make sovereign decisions over its borders so it votes to leave the treaty that is the cause . The reason is because it simply does not *feel* right to allow anybody who wants to come to you and swamp your economy in an uncontrolled manner , but it is also a considered opinion is it not - as opposed to a knee jerk jingoistic reaction ?

We have now moved from the realm of politics to philosophy , which leads me to a light hearted moment (shock horror)  - 

Boy goes on first date and asks for guidance from his older brother . He is counselled to stick to the 3 "F's" - food , family and philosophy . The young couple sit nervously facing each other across a table in a restuarant and he breaks the silence with a question :

"Do you like chips ?" - the girl replies "No" and a further silence ensues . He waits a few seconds and asks:

"Do you have any brothers ?" - - the girl replies "No" and a further , more uncomfortable silence ensues . He waits a few seconds and goes for #3 in his armoury of discussion points - philosophy - and asks

"If you would have had a brother do you think he would have liked fish ?"

 

 

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Replying to stepurhan:
Stepurhan
By stepurhan
01st Mar 2016 16:47

The real problem

Flying Scotsman wrote:
A country is unable to make sovereign decisions over its borders so it votes to leave the treaty that is the cause . The reason is because it simply does not *feel* right to allow anybody who wants to come to you and swamp your economy in an uncontrolled manner , but it is also a considered opinion is it not - as opposed to a knee jerk jingoistic reaction ?
Therein lies the problem.

The very phrase "swamp the economy" is an emotional one, that people will react to emotionally. As a result a decision made from hearing such a phrase could be a knee jerk jingoisitic reaction rather than a considered opinion. Something that is actually a complex issue is reduced to a soundbite. Freedom of movement within the EU isn't a one-way street. UK citizens are as free to work abroad as others are to move here. Leaving the treaty will block that as well. It isn't just "anybody" that can come across, but only EU citizens. There is also an inherent assumption that we get no benefit from skilled workers from other EU countries coming here. Do those benefits outweigh the costs? I honestly don't know.

I should say that I'm actually undecided. The only reason I am countering your phrasing is because it is you I'm addressing. Were I to be addressing a pro-EU person instead, I would apply different arguments. Both sides use emotional phrasing, and too often present in black and white (only pros for their choice and only cons for the opposition) It's hard to make an informed decision when you can't get hold of all the true facts.

 

 

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Replying to moneymanager:
Norman Younger
By Norman Younger
02nd Mar 2016 10:09

Emotiions

Stepurhan - Fair comment about addressing me directly - you are 100% and it hits the nail on the head , of my title

As somebody who is unaffected by working abroad it is not on my radar , although I have a certain feeling that more people re coming to the UK from Eastern Europe and Arab countries than going the other way. One hears migrants regularly stating that their preferred destination is UK , although personally I cannot understand what they so compelling about our country.

But even without emotion logic and cold thinking dictates that there has to be a limit or else there will be all sorts of imbalances with grave ramifications for the country

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By Wiganer Elaine
01st Mar 2016 16:58

Emotional & Considered (2)

Emotional

Britain has a long and proud history of standing alone/becoming the focal point of resistance  against several European aggressors.

Britain used to be a world leader in its own right and can be so again.

British values/democracy have been adopted across the western world - why do we no longer have any pride in this?

Considered

The majority of economists/bankers/corporate leaders who say REMAIN are the same ones who forecast doom and gloom/bankruptcies/the end of our economy of we didn't join the EURO - how drastically did they get that wrong?

Economies fall and rise; they always have done and always will - whether we are in the EU or not.

If we do go into a recession, it would be better to be in control of our own destiny - unlike Greece!

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By ShirleyM
02nd Mar 2016 07:52

I would say both

I've done a lot of research on the EU recently, and I dislike most of what I discovered. I also dislike the UK politicians as there isn't a single party whom I could wholeheartedly support.

I think there will be advantages and disadvantages to leaving but I want to leave.

The EU is sinking deeper and deeper into the mire. Better to get independence before the whole thing goes belly up. The EU will not admit it's faults or mistakes so there can never be a change for the better. I also distrust their power.

I would rather have a reasonable income and be in charge of my own destiny than have a massive salary and be beholden to (and totally reliant on) a self serving dictatorial boss who can never be sacked or held to account. I realise others may not feel the same, but we each have one vote.

That's the considered approach. The emotional approach reflects my personal values and morals. I am probably a rebel at heart. :)

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By User deleted
02nd Mar 2016 10:16

Free movement ...

... those with skills will always have free movement as they will pass a points based system.

Those without skills will not and therefore will need to be taught skills as we wont have cheap migrant labour coming in.

As a sixteen year old girl pointed out to the cabinet, it is ridiculous that unskilled EU workers can come here freely, non EU highly skilled people that we actually need have a difficult battle.

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By Wiganer Elaine
02nd Mar 2016 14:38

Just a thought

I'm curious - I've heard many "negative" reasons for not leaving the EU but I can't recall anyone giving a "positive" statement for remaining.

Are there any positive statements for remaining?

If so, can someone give a positive benefit for staying without resorting to negative scare tactics?

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Norman Younger
By Norman Younger
02nd Mar 2016 19:42

Positive reason for staying

IT is simply this - "better the devil you know" , well at least the pro-lobby tell us that is a positive reason

 

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By Wiganer Elaine
02nd Mar 2016 20:09

Not really what I had in mind!

I would like someone to give a positive reason, so, no negatives if we leave and no "sound bites".

Just a straightforward reason, something along the lines of

"If we vote leave , the populace can vote out the government if we don't think it's working" but starting

"If we vote to remain .................................................." What do we gain?

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By ShirleyM
02nd Mar 2016 21:21

Forget the spin doctors

Here are a few that I would agree are positives ... but the positives can also have big negatives!

Cheaper EU holidays (it is claimed)People visiting or living in EU countries don't need visasEU citizens don't have to have the same border checks as non-EU citizens.Some, but not all, UK citizens living or working in other EU countries get reduced price, or free, medical care.Approx 30K of unemployed UK citizens are supported by unemployment benefits paid by other EU countries (Ireland having the biggest share), but other EU countries are much stricter on who can claim, and for how long.

Any more, anyone?

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By cheekychappy
03rd Mar 2016 16:59

"Cheaper EU Holidays".

"Cheaper EU Holidays".

People have been holidaying more in non-EU countries in recent years because of the Euro.

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Norman Younger
By Norman Younger
03rd Mar 2016 18:14

Cheap holidays

Is hardly a reason to vote for or against such a serious issue , and one seriously hopes that it will not play a factor in the "stay" campaign

The way the Euro is strengthening will probably bring more visitors to the UK , assuming we can vote for nicer weather

 

 

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By Knight Rider
10th Mar 2016 17:52

After the sorry spectacle of a British Prime Minister wandering around Europe trying to get permission to make some minor changes to benefit payable in the UK (such as not paying Child benefit for children resident in Poland) it would be good to see the debate centre around sovereignty and the role of the UK Parliament.

It is quite astonishing that achieving some reforms satisfying the British public should prove so difficult to achieve when the UK contributes so much to the EU. Perhaps EU ministers think we will not vote to leave.

The pro EU lobby are pulling out all the scare stories about jobs and exclusion just as they did when the UK opted out of the euro. They even claimed credit for lead free petrol which seemed rather ironic given the explosion in the use of diesel. A spokesman for Ford favoured a remain vote after relocating their Transit production to Turkey. Other motor industry have weighed into the pro debate despite the UK being a net importer of vehicles and therefore likely to benefit from any imposition of tariffs. At least we have heard less of the platitudes about 'heart of Europe', slow trains and drawbridges.

The leave camp could make more of the discriminatory nature of the current immigration system (as OGA mentioned) and the degree to which decision making is centralised alienating national parliaments and peoples and causing a rise in nationalism. In the leave camp in particular there is a sense of having been deceived by politicians and big business that the EU project is about trade rather than a political union.

With all decisions we have to balance our heads with our hearts but as June 23rd draws closer and the news from the EU gets worse both our heads and our hearts will be less inclined to vote to stay in the EU project.

 

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Norman Younger
By Norman Younger
10th Mar 2016 18:34

Head or heart
Well said but one of the two will have to prevail unless a stalemate leads to inertia and this is what people must understand
This is the job of the leave guys , to impress the importance of getting out and voting . Its more important than a general election as this could be once in a generation

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