Nil P11D(b)

Another year gone, and we STILL have no facility to file online, using HMRC web-based software, a £nil P11D(b) where there are no supporting forms P11D.

Ho hum.

Comments
carnmores's picture

you can

carnmores | | Permalink

Check hmrc site can't tell you as am in greece solving their payroll problems !

petersaxton's picture

No need

petersaxton | | Permalink

You only need to file a P11D(b) if there are numbers.

But if a form is requested.

pauljohnston | | Permalink

You should File aP11d(b) amended accordingly to avoid a penalty notice, by mail

Am I missing something?

Yonder Dave | | Permalink

The P11D(b) states:

Please note if you have already indicated on your form P35 that forms P11D and P11D(b) are not due, there is no need to send this return.

Hence no facility for nil returns. A bit like the VAT EC Sales List where you don't have to submit a nil return, and no penalties if you don't.

Or am I miising something?

 

 

Dave

pauljohnston | | Permalink

Thats great but only if you have the info from your client in time.to realise it is a nil P11d.  Last year on Accounting Web I suggested that everyone use the no P11d box on the the P35 and if a P11d was then needed it could be sent in before the P11d deadline.

I have asked all mine if they have received a P 11d - less than 50% have responded.

Thanks Paul

Yonder Dave | | Permalink

I see your problem and fortunately as bookkeeping specialists we don't have that because we know if a P11D is required before the deadline.

Your suggestion is the obvious solution and would mean a "nil" P11D(b) would not be required.

petersaxton's picture

Say no

petersaxton | | Permalink

pauljohnston wrote:

You should File aP11d(b) amended accordingly to avoid a penalty notice, by mail

Last year HMRC said to me that they didn't need the P11D(b) if there was no Class 1A NICs to pay. Whether that is correct or not I don't know.

I always say no P11Ds and P11D(b)s are due. If I find out they are due I send them later.

In response to several comments above:

Jimlad | | Permalink

The paper form P11D(b) has on it a tickbox inviting you to submit the form P11D(b) declaring that no forms P11D are required.  If HMRC consider it appropriate to provide the taxpayer with an opportunity to make that declaration on paper, it is no less appropriate to provide the taxpayer with an opportunity to make that declaration online.

In my experience, if HMRC have issued a P11D(b) form and payslip to the taxpayer, simply ticking the "are not due" box on form P35 is not (always) sufficient to inhibit the issue of a penalty notice if the P11D(b) is not returned.  That may have changed in the last year - I have not tested it and do not intend to.  Now, on each and every occasion in the past where a penalty has been issued despite that the P35 declaration was completed, I have successfully appealed against the penalty and had it vacated (or at least reduced to £nil, always a niggling doubt over that).  But I would rather that a penalty notice was not issued to the client, however inevitable is the success of the resulting appeal.

At the time of completing the P35 I may be unaware of whether forms P11D are required.  Furthermore as the filing deadlines are staggered I do not NEED to be aware of that requirement while filing the P35.  So I have two choices:  I can, as Peter Saxton, tick the "are not due" box on the P35 and then later, but within the second deadline, file a form P11D and P11D(b) should I later change my mind.  Or I can tick the "will be sent later" box on the P35, and then later, when I decide that none are due, either file a Nil form P11D(b) or file a repaired P35 on which the only change has been to change "will be sent later" to "are not due".  Either approach may be practical but have some technical drawbacks, but I would still at least like the choice to tick "will be sent later" on P35 and then file ONLINE a nil P11D(b) if that should be appropriate.

I am unpersuaded by the suggestion that a P11D(b) is only required if there is class 1A payable.  I am open to persuasion but as yet I am, as I say, unpersuaded. There is no declaration on a P11D to commit to its accuracy.  There is a declaration on form P11D(b) to wit that all forms P11D have been filed or are enclosed, and I have always also taken this to be a certification of the accuracy of the supporting forms P11D.  It is of course absolutely possible that there may be a requirement to file a P11D (ie for reimbursed business expenses) without there necessarily resulting a class 1A charge, but in that case I would expect there to be a requirement for P11D(b).  But this paragraph is thread drift.  That scenario is not the subject of this thread, which is devoted to the case where there are no forms P11D required.

petersaxton's picture

Repaired P35?

petersaxton | | Permalink

"file a repaired P35"

I didn't think you could do that.

Thread drift can be good. I suppose it doesn't help the search facility though!

carnmores's picture

I think you have to file a repair

carnmores | | Permalink

Direct thro hmrc website but I thought you could only add things

Jimlad

pauljohnston | | Permalink

I agree with your comments.  A penalty notice has the following negative implications.  1 To the client that you are not doing your job properly 2  THe cost and expense of appealing the notice..

Indeed I lost a client in 20121-12 because a penalty notice was received by the client even though the payroll had been closed 2 years earlier.  Try and explain the HMRC has cocked up "again" was not good enough.

I do think that an electronic tick box as you describe has to be worthwhile. 

Ken Gordon has obtained confirmation that the service company box does not need tio be completed but this is not allowed on the electronic form.  Another amendment needed.

Workaround

taxgeek | | Permalink

I've just found a workaround to use my tax software to file a nil P11D.  Try entering £1 for travel and subsistence and then enter £1 as being reimbursed by the employee.  This creates a £0 figure for taxable benefits and £0 Class 1A NI.  This is useful if the client can't find their original P11D(b) form, which means that you can't file it on paper.

This is obviously not strictly correct, but it does seem to work.

 

Workaround

wblewis | | Permalink

Try entering £1 for travel and subsistence and then enter £1 as being reimbursed by the employee.

This has work for me using the HMRC,s own software for some years!

Nil

ds | | Permalink

Just select one of the various benefit categories and enter 0.00 in it, this seems to be accepted, you have filed the form even though not strictly needed if there are no benefits to declare but it keeps Hector happy.

No employees

frauke | | Permalink

I get P11D(b) for an employers which I sent a Nil P35 return and they have not had any employees for 2 years as well as employers who I have ticked the No P11'd's etc due.  

Once issued they just seem to be issued automatically each year even I tell them that they are not required.

petersaxton's picture

Can't assume

petersaxton | | Permalink

They can't assume that things won't change in future years.

carnmores's picture

just seen this from a keytime add on aweb

carnmores | | Permalink

DONT

Send a P11D if you’ve ticked the box on the P35 to say P11Ds aren’t due.

 

!!!!

petersaxton's picture

Why?

petersaxton | | Permalink

Strange ad

P11D starting level.

bridpath | | Permalink

Can I throw in to the ring the old chestnut and ask why we still have to fill in P11D's for salaries below say £20, 000 per year? Being of the re-cycled teenager group I remember when £2000 per year was a high ranking salary.  This has to be one of the large pieces of red tape that has to go, and the sooner the better.

Why is something that is so simple taking so long to implement?

tuliptownman | | Permalink

Jimlad wrote:

At the time of completing the P35 I may be unaware of whether forms P11D are required.  Furthermore as the filing deadlines are staggered I do not NEED to be aware of that requirement while filing the P35.  So I have two choices:  I can, as Peter Saxton, tick the "are not due" box on the P35 and then later, but within the second deadline, file a form P11D and P11D(b) should I later change my mind.  Or I can tick the "will be sent later" box on the P35, and then later, when I decide that none are due, either file a Nil form P11D(b) or file a repaired P35 on which the only change has been to change "will be sent later" to "are not due".  Either approach may be practical but have some technical drawbacks, but I would still at least like the choice to tick "will be sent later" on P35 and then file ONLINE a nil P11D(b) if that should be appropriate.

I am unpersuaded by the suggestion that a P11D(b) is only required if there is class 1A payable. 

Client operates payroll in house - did not know the answer to the P11d question so answers "will be sent later". P11d in fact not due and the quiet simple solution to this dilemma which would be for agent to send structured email to HMRC stating P11d is not due has still not been taken up.

Where no P11d(b) is returned and a notice to file one electronically has been sent (because 2010/11 was filed electronically) no paper P11d(b) is supplied therefore other than printing one out and hoping for the best we have nothing to send to HMRC in paper format to state that P11d is not due and no means of doing it electronically. I do not fancy the idea of talking client through making a repaired P35 submission and seems a sledge to hammer the nut of a simple statement that P11d's are not due.

I do know from experience that if nothing is sent to HMRC they will issue penalty notice in this scenario as they did last year with other Companies where a Nil Return was appropriate, a paper one sent in and they were sat in a pile waiting to be processed when penalty notices automatically issued.

I would class this issue as the one of the few remaining issues surrounding end of year filing as things currently stand that needs addressing, by what should be a very simple fix.

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