Speed
Not onlly have connection speeds improved but new technologies - such as AJAX mean less data needs to be transferred between the browser and the server and, of course, these servers are getting faster.
Internet based systems (such as Fusion Accounts that I'm "pimping") tend to use modern, scaleable databases rather than file based systems that older desktop systems use. This means that they not only perfrom well when empty but they continue to perform well with lots of transactions and users. Indeed, since most of them are so called "multi tennant" systems (all the data in the same database) then this is a given.
Speed is an issue
I'm not going to get into the multi-tenant/rdbms debate - I don't think Charlie cares too much.
As much as all the cloud accounting providers would rather it isn't the case, there IS a speed issue with using a web-based interface. Even with minimising the data that needs to be sent to the server it's not possible to match the speed of a well written locally-installed application.
We're hoping to have something that will address this for KashFlow within the next couple of months
Speed is not just about connection speeds
The HMRC have a "cloud" system for completing tax returns on line.
It runs more slowly in January than it does in August. My PC based software for completing tax returns runs at approximately the same speed all year round.
I appreciate such issues don't affect applications where the work load is evenly distributed over time but must factor into a entirely cloud based vision of the future.
David Forbes
Forbes Computer Systems Ltd
Speed is subjective
To get going and do anything with Quickbooks can take a minute and a half. With Aqilla (www.aqilla.com) and many other SaaS based solutions - response times are almost instantaneous.
Reporting across a whole ledger is also generally fast. In depends in fact how much data is being being 'presented' that determines the load on the network and the performance the user experiences. As the chap from Fusion said, modern solutions sitting atop business class databases cope admirably with large, demanding data volumes. A lot has been learnt since moving from flat file, to relational client/server to modern Web 2.0 architectures.
The other day I tested an enquiry that drew out, sorted and reported over 4000 ledger transactions across 3 years in under a minute.
errr...?
@duane...some of the apps I've seen run blazing fast, even over EDGE networks...it's all about the UI design and how far you're willing to go to get that right plus the extent to which you're able to tweak the app for the environment. I've seen it done so...but yes, generally, most vendors are not paying enough (any?) attention to this.
That's not fair
@hugh - tsk, tsk = you know that's not a fair comparison re: QB and this chap is talking about speed of data input.
HMRC?
It is a topic of debate whether HMRC is able to dynamically provision enough horse power to cope with peak loads. That's an important issue and one I should have mentioned.
@charlie - In the US, Microsoft VARs are talking seriously (if not already building) data centers on which to host Dynamics (NAV/AX etc) - that is NOT a cloud based solution but hosted. They will be faced with many challenges but IF they can make something like that work then at least in the interim period, it might be a solution to track. Especially if it 'migrates' to this part of the world. The reason being they should be able to take advantage of at least some cloud economics. Not saying it's ideal but might overcome your batch problem with a solution that has batch input capability.
But to be frank with you, it sounds as though your requirements are different and may not suit current cloud based solutions.
In terms of data entry
...web based apps are still pretty fast. In addition the TAB button 'tends' to follow an entry sequence if determined in a web page as it does on a desktop app.
There are also other contemporary options too to suit an individuals preference in terms of document acquisition via scanning or pure grid entry via a spreadsheet which can then be imported and validated by whatever API the particular vendor offers.
I agree with Dennis though in that a lot of it is down to the design (and customisation) of the UI.
As for HMRC - I find it always works fine at 1am when I tend to find myself using their on-line services! :-)
It's physics
@dennis - yes, some web apps can be very very fast. I'm not disputing that.
But from a technical perspective, sending any amount of data (and there will always be SOME data) to the fastest possible server can never be as fast as the same data exchange with the fastest possible local app on a decent spec machine. It's just physics.
More Haste, Less Speed
Don't forget that all of the decent SaaS apps out there significantly reduce the actual number of tasks where bulk data entry is required.
So no need for repetitive manual entry of invoices if the app supports flexible recurring profiles and/or automatic import from e-commerce systems.
No need for fast cashbook entry if you can import and automatically analyze/reconcile bank/paypal transaction data.
Yes, raw speed seems important when you have lots of entries to make. But we find our users save significant time every day because there's no need for that anymore.
Beware of the ostriches
It's very true that the tools/features in apps like KashFlow and Freeagent automate a lot of work and save users a lot of time.
But there are still plenty of situations where bulk entry of data can't be avoided. Speed of bulk data entry is fast becoming a barrier to adoption, surpassing other sexier and more contentious issues.
It can only be partially addressed with AJAX (where data is sent back and forth 'behind the scenes' so a page refresh isn't required) and well thought out user interfaces
Rather than pretend the problem doesn't exist we intend to address it head on - watch this space. I'm willing to bet other SaaS providers will follow suit.
Bulk loading of data
As Duane says bandwidth can be an issue with bulk loading, particularly if it has to be done interactively. Amazon with their S3 cloud storage facility still suggest that if you have a lot of data to upload pop your hard drive to them in the post (suitably bubble wrapped of course) !
My point re. the HMRC was, should they have the CPU resource for 100,000 people to all calculate their tax at the same time when those 100,000 people all have perfectly good CPUs sitting around idle. Just look to SETI@home
My betting is that clever Duane fellow is about annouce some sort of offline data entry and upload for Kashflow and he is just priming the pumps like those oh so clever Apple people have done with the iLaptopWithoutAKeyboard or iExtraLargeIpodTouch or whatever name they choose.
One more for Alan's list
(with apologies for the shameless plug!)
M
Emily Coltman ACA Support Accountant FreeAgent Central Ltd Quartermile Two, 2 Lister Square, Edinburgh, EH3 9GL Registered in Scotland SC316774 Tel: 07766 613047 ------------------------------------------------------------------- FreeAgent Heaven or Spreadsheet Hell? Painless online accounting for busy freelancers, contractors and consultants. 30-day free trial www.freeagentcentral.com -------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan, you are a star
...but for reference there's no 'u' in Aqilla!
It's just www.aqilla.com
Thanks for the mention in any event and yes @daveforbes, from there being little or nothing to choose from four years ago, there's a whole new world of modern accounting solutions out there!
@charlieperry - you can also do a feature comparison search at www.softcomparison.com
Love it
Don't you all love the way @duane declares victory before he's actually got something to show - let alone prove the point? Classic Oracle style PR. I swear that dude's been sitting at the knee of Larry Ellison...or at the very least watching some of his vids.
Great and Good
Wow, comparisons to Larry Ellison and Steve Jobs in one set of comments. Duane is clearly destined for greatness!
Not quite
@chatman - let's be clear. @duane speaks for himself and as such reflects his experience with the service his copmany deploys. As someone who has kicked the tyres of quite a few of those mentioned in Alan's list (and some that don't appear) and in controlled environments along with colleagues, I can say that 'speed' per se is not the issue most people find important, except in very specific cases. I have for instance seen 20,000+ user systems where people are constantly hitting sales order processes. No problem.
What the SaaS vendors <em>should</em> be saying is that they are able to manage the unpredictable loads imposed on their systems by thousands of users hitting their servers. Ergo the systems can handle high volumes of data input from multiple concurrent users.
The original question raised a use case specific point. I can think of others. All of which means that while SaaS/cloud is the topic du jour and offers many benefits, it is not the end game for at least some businesses - and rightly so.
Not really cloud vs. on-premises
I agree with where the middle of this thread was going.
The original question is asking about heads down data input productivity. We see this requirement all the time in accounting firms for writeup / financial statement generation and in both accounting firms and the finance department for the the AP process and less commonly for AR. Also very common in Payroll. It's all about rapid and accurate data entry. Think about an AP clerk entering 100 invoices into the system one after the other, or an accountant processing 50 bills to be sent to clients.
This to me is an application design question not a SaaS/Cloud vs. on-premises question. In other words, has whomever built the application thought about how they could minimize the time it takes to key in a large number of documents. The original poster asked many of the right questions - can you tab between fields / does the system move you between fields or do you have to use the mouse. Do fields auto-complete and finish entries for you automatically? Do you use smart pick lists wherever possible to narrow choices? Has a usability study been done to look at how you can provide the absolute fastest data entry with minimum errors?
Yes the idea of SaaS is to provide web-services and automation - but that's not always possible. As others have said, there are plenty of technologies like Ajax and Flex that can be used in the front-end to make this process highly productive for the users - but at the end of the day this is an application design question much more than a Cloud vs. On-prem question I think.
Clarity
@chatman - apologies if I was not clear in what I am saying. The world of saas is not limited to professionals in practice, indeed many of the players cited here are operating in the commercial world. What I guess I am saying is that nothing is quite as simple as presented and it is very easy to jump to conclusions that may not e appropriate for the use case presented.
Off topic
It does seem to have veered off topic, but I think with the monster list of web addresses from axw001 really answers the posters question (which reminds me I should do something with that www.accountants.co.uk address I registered the other day in anticipation of this interweb explosion). This leaves us free to the new direction of the thread, what do we think of Duane and his Kashflow, which is much more fun. I find myself agreeing with chatman, (and agreeing with anyone is very much against my nature) - admitting speed is potentially a problem and looking to ways to address it, possibly by (gasp) dropping out of the cloud on special occasions, is very sensible. I was equally impressed a few weeks back when on the subject of data safety when others were saying not a problem, super secure, my data centre is under a mountain etc., Duane was said that they were working on eAccounts or oAccounts an xml import/export format. It could be that it is all talk but at least to my ears he is saying the right things.
Not just noise
The oAccounts stuff isn’t just talk, but it is painfully slow.
The guy who originally conceived the idea has other distractions and obligations so isn’t able to continue with it. He’s agreed so pass it on to someone else. I think it needs to be supported by a commercial venture somehow to go anywhere (there are lots of industry “initiatives” that don’t seem to be going anywhere fast). If myself or KashFlow are involved at a commercial level I suspect it will put off other SaaS vendors from getting involved.
I know someone who is starting a SaaS (not accounting or with any specific application – more a utitlity) business and a common data format for all sorts of things is essential to it. So he’s talking to the original guy to see how he can take it forward. I’ve even somehow managed to get Sage to make the right noises so far.
As I say, painfully slow!
As for the fun topic of “what do we think of Duane and KashFlow” - I know I make a lot of noise (although less than I used to) and I'm an easy target for trigger-happy bloggers, but KashFlow isn’t just me. “KashFlow” and “Duane” shouldn’t be synonymous. There’s 15 of us in the London Bridge office and we’re just bringing on 3 more people in a satellite office. The others do a hell of a lot more work than I do.
I’m not overly precious about staying in the cloud for the sake of it. If having an non-cloud element makes KashFlow a more usable product then so be it!
Maybe the future is something like Adobe Air
Lots of interesting debates about speed, which I think from a users perspective is a combination of design, connectivity, and perception. I remember when desktop apps moved over to a Windows environment from DOS, and many users in transaction based roles bemoaned the switch as it was just not more efficent to post lots of transactions in Windows based systems rather than in DOS. The issue was one of design, Windows apps at that time were simply not smart enough at handling volumes of transactions quickly.
In this scenario I think this is also an issue, I use SaaS accounting system for my own business, and have looked at a few others for clients, and think that just the way in which the browser renders the screens makes it appear slower than a desktop app. There is certainly a latency there that gives users the perception of slow performance. This coupled with the typically very poor comms infrastructure we have in the UK makes it seem even worse.
On a more positive note I have seen some interesting stuff coming out of Adobe Air which is what BBC IPlayer runs on under linux, it seems that Adobe have managed to create a platform that takes the best elements of browser platform and Desktop app to give a more robust user experience perhaps this could be part of the future for SaaS accounting providers a combination of Cloud and Desktop.
Useful Adobe Air stuff here http://www.adobe.com/products/air/comparison/
and list of apps here http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/marketplace/index.cfm?event=marketplace.hom...
-- David Watson Indigo Group 1 Friary, Temple Quay, Bristol, BS1 6EA T: 0117 370 4384 ¦ M: 07921 830 7770 ¦ www.indigo-consult.co.uk
Alan's list
For those interested, i've taken Alan Wright's list, cleaned it upm extended it and added more information about each of the providers. The table can be found here.
www.accountsiq.com
another one for the list is www.accountsiq.com
Cloud Based Accounting Applications
I have just come accross your list of cloud based applications and note that ours is not inclided:
Regards, Paul
Speed?
Charlie - if there was a speed issue it is almost certainly to do with the connection you have. Products have improved considerably the last few years, there's plenty more to choose from and I'm sure the vendors will pile in pimping their wares in the next couple of hours. ;)