Duplicate payslips

Is it illegal to produce duplicate payslips? What is the legal situation if dupliacte payslips are provied to someone who has lost or damaged the originals?

Is there legal reference available in favour or against the practice to produce duplicate payslips?

Comments
davidwinch's picture

Nothing wrong in itself

davidwinch | | Permalink

There would be nothing wrong in itself in producing duplicate payslips - to replace ones which had been lost, for example.

However my understanding is that an employer should not issue duplicate forms P45 or P60.  If a person requires duplicates of these he should obtain the information from HMRC. (EDIT - please see Neil's more knowledgeable comments re issuing a duplicate P60 below.)

Of course if a person prepared a duplicate payslip with the intention of using it dishonestly to perpetrate a crime, such as a fraud, then (because this would amount to a step in committing the crime) that could be a criminal offence.

David

What is the legal position when so many companies offering

Anonymous | | Permalink

this service on the web. Offers are available not only to produce duplicate payslips but also P60s?

Duplicates

neiltonks | | Permalink

Payslips can be re-printed without problem - employees frequently lose these and ask for replacements when applying for loans, for instance.  Some employers make a charge for the provision of replacements (but not for the originals!)

P60 and P45 forms are governed by HMRC rules.  These say that P60s can be re-issued provided the new copy is clearly marked "Duplicate". However P45s cannot be re-issued under any circumstances.   If the original is found to be incorrect, the employer should write to both the employee and HMRC stating the correct figures. If further payments are made to the employee after the P45 is issued, the employee must be provided with a written statement of the payment and the tax deducted.  HMRC need not be notified at the time the payment is made but the payment and statutory deductions taken from it must be included on the P14 in the usual manner.

Neil.

 

Jon Stow's picture

Payslips offered on the web

Jon Stow | | Permalink

may in many cases be intended as evidence of previous pay received by people seeking jobs. The purveyors of these payslips make them look convincing though they may be entirely bogus and simply offered as evidence that the applicant was trusted enough to be paid a large salary and to convince a prospective employer to pay that person one. This is fraud, and nothing else. Of course if the person were offered a job there would be some excuse as to why a P45 could not be provided to the new employer.

tysonn's picture

Fake wage slips

tysonn | | Permalink

Interesting article recently in the Observer on this very subject http://bit.ly/8Z469o.

 

davidwinch's picture

Employment obtained by false representation

davidwinch | | Permalink

Where employment is obtained by false representation, such as the use of fake payslips as evidence of previous employment, then the person making the false representation commits a Fraud Act 2006 offence (as the Observer article says).

It is also the case that the wages obtained in that employment are classed as a 'benefit' of crime for confiscation purposes.  See, for example, the July 2009 Court of Appeal decision regarding a Mr Paulet (who falsely claimed he was entitled to work in the UK when he was not) http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2009/1573.html

The same applies to a mortgage advance obtained by false representation, where the sum obtained is regarded as a 'benefit' for confiscation purposes.

The impact of confiscation following conviction can be very serious in such cases.

David

Is there any responsibility on firms producing duplicate payslip

Anonymous | | Permalink

It is understood that if a person has committed a fraud would be accordingly liable. But what is the responsibility of the company who has produced duplicate payslips without knowing the geniuness of it.

tysonn's picture

Other possible offences

tysonn | | Permalink

The person would also be commiting an offence under s6 Fraud Act 2006 - Possession of articles for use in fraud, although the prosecution would have to be able to prove that the person intended to use the articles in fraud. Also if the person used the documents to obtain a 'service' then they would be commiting an offence under s11 Fraud Act 2006 - obtaining services dishonestly. This could apply where for example the person uses the documents to gain access to legal representation under the legal aid scheme, or social housing provision from a local authority or Housing Association.

davidwinch's picture

Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981

davidwinch | | Permalink

Part 1 of the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981 creates various offences relating to a "false instrument".  By s8 an instrument includes "any document, whether of a formal or informal character".

For example s1 provides:

"A person is guilty of forgery if he makes a false instrument, with the intention that he or another shall use it to induce somebody to accept it as genuine, and by reason of so accepting it to do or not to do some act to his own or any other person’s prejudice."

There are corresponding offences in relation to copying a false instrument and using a false instrument.

Maximum penalty is 10 years imprisonment.

David

tysonn's picture

Making or supplying articles

tysonn | | Permalink

s7 Fraud Act 2006 makes it an offence to make or supply articles for use in fraud but the difficulty is proving that the person making or supplying the articles knew or intended the article was to be used to commit or facilitate fraud. Therefore much easier to prove where the person is part of the same criminal gang as the people commiting the fraud, or where there is clear evidence that they have been commissioned to produce a specific article/instrument. Much more difficult to prove where someone has just made a general purchase from a website, particularly where those websites have various disclaimers attached. It looks like the police are trying to crack down on these websites but it will be interesting to see whether they will have better success with the new Fraud Act offences.

Enforcement ? None !

Anonymous | | Permalink

Has anyone ever been convicted of mortgage fraud? We all know it is rife and encouraged by the industry.

Presumably the authorities turn a blind eye to this because it is a cornerstone of the UK economy.

Fake payslips and false representaions are a normal part of the process, I remember a coleague making up his own payslips some twenty years ago to obtain a mortgage he could not afford at the time.

In the age if the internet this option is now open to everyone.

All internet providers should be subject to the money laundering reporting rules, as accountants are a bit old hat now !!

weaversmiths's picture

Fake Payslips

weaversmiths | | Permalink

I had a client (I was not the accountant) who requested I produce a fake payslip so that he could get a loan. I refused.  He then requested that I make him a director of a company I no longer carried out payroll for to produce this payslip.  I refused again.  His acting chartered accountant produced one for him even though there have been no books kept or accounts done for 18 months.  This is the accountant who continually makes snide remarks about people who "think" they are accountants.  This is also the (ex) client who is running up bills at my address and whom our revered police wont do anything about.  What is the point of all these laws when there is no one who can be bothered to carry them out???  Legislation is all right in theory but it all appears  to be a thorough waste of time when you get down to it.

 

TheAncientOne

report him

Anonymous | | Permalink

To the ICAEW and consider ML report.

He won't be a chartered accountant for long !!

ICAEW

Anonymous | | Permalink

I also have problems with some Chartered Accountants not responding to requests for handover of client records, even though our emails/letters were accompanied by a signed authorisation by the client.

If this is typical of their responses to requests, then it is no wonder clients leave them.

Carry over Information

Anonymous | | Permalink

We too are seeing an increased problem from Chartered Accountants releasing carry over information, but this is still nowhere near the level of problems experienced obtaining carry over information from unqualified accountants.

And you can at least complain to the ICAEW.

davidwinch's picture

Has anyone ever been convicted of mortgage fraud?

davidwinch | | Permalink

Yes! 

However where prosecutors really 'score' on mortgage fraud is in confiscation proceedings.  This is because the 'benefit' is the amount 'obtained' - in the case of a mortgage fraud that is the amount advanced by the lender.

In confiscation proceedings the defendant (after conviction) is required to pay whichever is the lower of (i) his 'benefit' or (ii) his 'available amount' (defined, broadly speaking, as gross assets less secured liabilities).

So where you have someone who has accumulated some assets in life and who has committed mortgage fraud he will find himself having to pay to the Court (from his other assets) in confiscation proceedings an amount equal to the mortgage advance in addition to any other punishment he receives (in effect like a fine).  Of course his liability to repay the lender remains unaffected.

The impact can be considerable!

David

Fake payslips

Anonymous | | Permalink

Surely it's the easiest thing in the world to produce these without resorting to the websites concerned? So long as you know what basic info is needed. If you were really keen you could buy a payroll package. When I employed a nanny her payslips just came off an excel spreadsheet and ditto 10 years ago when I ran a payroll for a charity I was involved with, since we could not afford to pay for luxuries like payroll software.

What is needed is to go back to the days when lenders and mortgage companies wrote to your employer - at least that verified you were who you said you were. I suppose you could collude in some cases but it would at least be another hurdle to get over.

 

No accountant make duplicate payslips with the knowledge

Anonymous | | Permalink

that someone is going to commit a fraud. So what I gathered is that it is okay to make a duplicate payslip as long as you are not a party to fraud.

Criminals playground

Anonymous | | Permalink

The internet truly is a criminals playground. You can get fake ID as well !

poor old publicans ! and accountants for that matter.

in fact our systems are disappearing up our own backsides.

The writing is on the wall as the governments tax policy is more akin to the emperor Nero's than anything sensible.

What remains of our economy may be Fraud, drugs, guns and prostitution. what a bubble !

davidwinch's picture

A crime bubble?

davidwinch | | Permalink

I suppose as the bulk of my business is forensic accountancy in relation to crime and proceeds of crime I ought to view potential growth in crime favourably!!

 

David

http://www.AccountingEvidence.com

Agree with above

fellowcraft | | Permalink

Just go to eBay and have a look at how many people are offering "novelty" or "replacement" payslips for a fiver!

 

How a lender accepts these as proof of earnings I'll never know.

 

And by the way, I took over a client last year from an accountant in Birmingham who was convicted of mortgage fraud.

tysonn's picture

enforcement

tysonn | | Permalink

Yes people do get picked up for this http://bit.ly/68obuW albeit not under the new Fraud Act. Also don't forget that enforcement action covers more than just prosecution and there have been a number of mortgage advisers dealt with by FSA http://bit.ly/64GzOY.

Just picking up on the other point re writing to the employer - make sure you independently check the employer's address. I have seen cases where the fraudster has given the genuine name of an organisation but provided a 'drop' address controlled by them or an associate. They then create a false written reference using stolen or copied headed paper.

When as part of his services an accountant

Anonymous | | Permalink

prepares duplicate payslips for a mortgage broker- without knowing that the broker is passing on false information, would this accountants be liable as well.

In Neils reply, he mentioned that P60s should be marked as duplicate, can you please refere me to HMRC's manual. Thanks.

davidwinch's picture

The intention

davidwinch | | Permalink

In common with many (but not all) criminal offences the intention of the offender is key.

A person cannot accidentally commit a criminal offence under Fraud Act 2006 or Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981 or Theft Act 1968.  They have to have intention / knowledge of wrongdoing.

If an accountant prepares duplicate payslips etc which he honestly believes to be correct he does not commit an offence by doing that.

So the one-word answer to your question is "No".

David

PDF payslips, P60, P45s

Anonymous | | Permalink

The payroll software I use can produce a P60, P45 and payslips, all as PDF files.

I usually email the payslips and the P30 to the client. This would mean they could print duplicates if they needed to.

What is the legal position?

And what about the P45/P60?

What are HMRC's rules on providing duplicate P60s?

Anonymous | | Permalink

Further to Neil's comments (22/11/09) regarding P60s reproduction, can you please provide us the referance to these guidance notes? Also, can an accountant or a web company re-prouce these P60s in light of these notes? 

P60

neiltonks | | Permalink

There are a number of references to duplicate P60s in HMRC's guidance, one example of which is in employer booklet E10(2009) "Finishing the tax year up to April 2009".  On page 21 of this booklet, in the section on form P60, it says:

If an employee asks for another copy, you may issue a duplicate. Any duplicate must be clearly marked with the word ‘DUPLICATE’.

Neil.

Forms P60

Anonymous | | Permalink

Incorrect re duplicate forms P60 - HMRC's website confirms duplicate forms P60 can be issued where receipient has lost the original without getting permission from HMRC. The duplicate must clearly be marked "duplicate". IR Watcher

Incorrect ?

Anonymous | | Permalink

I am lost what was incorrect !! ?? Seems to be a repeat of the same message.

How will anyone know whether it is the original or a duplicate, unless they turn up together then which is which and who produced it. (Revenue already have p14 why would they want p60)

Who on earth is going to persue this ? Gravity ? Amount ?

Would it be fair given MP's have not been persued for much more serious offences , tax payers charter ? not worth anything again may be?

The Devils own advocate !

Can an accountant (not acting as employer's agent) reproduce P60

Anonymous | | Permalink

Can an accountant purely on someone's instructions produce a duplicate P60? All the infomation has come from the employee and not from the employer. Very much like website offering this service. Bearing in mind that it is already understood that employer's can issue a duplicate P60.

davidwinch's picture

I would not do it

davidwinch | | Permalink

I would not produce a duplicate P60 for a client if I were not asked to do so by the employer.

The client should ask his employer for the duplicate P60.

If the employer is no longer in existence or has become insolvent then he should either ask HMRC to confirm the information or contact an insolvency practitioner appointed over the assets of the employer (if there has been an appointment).

There would be a risk associated with producing a P60 based upon unsupported assertions by the employee (a risk of becoming unwittingly involved in misconduct of one sort or another by the employee).

David

Only employer or his authorised payroll rep

Anonymous | | Permalink

Only the employer or the employer's authorised payroll rep can produce "duplicates" of any HMRC form which is within the responsibility of the employer to issue in the first place. The employee can't generate his/her own P60/P45 i.e. can't self-certify in any way! IR Watcher

Incorrect

Anonymous | | Permalink

For the correspondent who professes to being "lost" - "incorrect" refers to the comments on this website that "duplicate forms P60 cannot be issued without HMRC permission" - see elsewhere in this correspondence. Duplicates can be issued upon request to the employer from the employee - HMRC are not involved. IR Watcher

Action

Anonymous | | Permalink

May be the answer is to refuse on the grounds that it would at least be unethical. But direct the request to a website that does. When this becomes a big enough problem then someone might do something about it. (Satire in action)

Complete a money laundering risk assesment and report the website on the suspicion that they may be assisting criminal activity. You never know perhaps a politically exposed person is the beneficail owner of the website, given that our rules are usually drafted for their benefit.

 

Duplicate payslips

Anonymous | | Permalink

DW,

What is the legal position under following scenarios:-

A.

An individual brings in personal bank statements with narration on the bank statement 'Jan net pay -xyz ltd'

and wants you to produce a payslip for that month. Provides you with other details to work out the tax code

B.

Individdla brings the same details as A, but in addition brings in payslips on a4 paper produced in excel. He asks you to produce 'proper' payslips

 

.

davidwinch's picture

Employer

davidwinch | | Permalink

In either case I would tell the client to get payslips from his employer.

It would be wrong, in my view, to supply payslips which look as if they come from an employer unless you are the employer or you are acting on instructions directly from the employer.

David

Thank you, DW

Anonymous | | Permalink

Tahnk you for the clear answer.

What about pdf files?

Anonymous | | Permalink

One poster asked about pdf files.

I normally email the payslips, P30s, and P60 to the client. When he prints them out they are originals. If he needs them again and prints them out, are they are still originals?

Indeed, can I legally email him the P60?

Yes,

Anonymous | | Permalink

Yes, you can legally email P60 to your clients - I guess, otherwise HMRC approved software would not have that facility. Also, from a practical point of view a PDF P60 cannot be used to mislead, as the figures on the P60 would be correct, and any cross check with HMRC would not throw up any surprises. Unless ofcourse PDF files can be amended, in that case a person who has know how to amend  PD

 F file would have found other means to alter any posted P60.  It really cannot be our responsibility as to what a receipent does with a genuine document suppplied.  

 

what went wrong

Anonymous | | Permalink

don't know why my response has been posted more than once. How does one delte the duplicated postings?

stepurhan's picture

Deleting posts

stepurhan | | Permalink

You'll have to ask the moderating staff. Posting anonymously disables the ability to edit or delete posts for the user.

Thanks

Anonymous | | Permalink

I will serioulsy think before posting as an anon.

RebeccaBenneyworth's picture

It made me smile!

RebeccaBenneyworth | | Permalink

My email update - which is set to daily, looks like this

- A new comment has been added: Yes,
- A new comment has been added: Yes,
- A new comment has been added: Yes,
- A new comment has been added: Yes,
- A new comment has been added: Yes,
 

It put me in mind of a rather well known film!

Anyhow, I have tidied it up for you and removed the duplicates!

Thank you, Rebecca

Anonymous | | Permalink

I only pressed submit bitton once - honest.

 

Thank you.

weaversmiths's picture

P60s etc

weaversmiths | | Permalink

If I have issued the P60s for a client to pass on to their employees  I make it clear that any duplicates will incur a charge - its surprising how fast  the original turns up!   Also, if I am asked for duplicate figures of income (usually for the last 6 - 12 weeks to claim some sort of benefit) , I charge extra as those payslips have already been issued.    The same with "lost" P45s as this necessitates a letter as P45s cannot be duplicated.  Clients appreciate this so I rarely get asked for information already supplied. 

 

 

TheAncientOne

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