June release

Posted by Martin B PM | on Fri, 17/06/2011 - 07:45  2114  13 comments | report

Can VT please confirm that the June update will include tagging of the profit and loss account?

When exactly will the June release be availabe? could it run into sometime in July?

I am doing a December 2010 set of acounts and want to know if it is worth waiting for the June release.

Up to now if have prepard and filed 5 ixbrl sets of accounts along the tax returns using Taxcalc and it has worked very well.

 

 

Comments

June update

vtsoftware | Fri, 17/06/2011 - 09:41 | Permalink

The 30 June update will not include the tagging of the detailed p/l. This is not needed until April 2013. There are two reasons for this delay:

  • The tagging has been making the workbooks very much larger and this has caused some users performance problems and I do not want to make the situation worse. See http://www.vtsoftware.co.uk/support/filesize.htm
  • I am rather hoping (perhaps naively) that HMRC can be persuaded to extend minimum tagging indefinitely as they have done for the CT taxonomy. I do not believe HMRC need the extra data - indeed they are using are only a fraction of the data they are currently collecting  (the trouble HMRC are putting the taxpayer to in tagging accounts and then not using most of the data is in my view nothing short of wicked). See the last three points at the bottom of http://www.vtsoftware.co.uk/support/ixbrlqanda.htm

I have just updated http://www.vtsoftware.co.uk/support/roadmap.htm. I am sorry, that should have been done earlier.

Philip Hodgson
VT Software

 

Thanks Philip

Martin B | Fri, 17/06/2011 - 12:17 | Permalink

For your reply. I can only assume that the chances of an inquiry from HMRC will increase as the tagged detailed P&L is not included. I would have thought the detailed P& L pages are fairly fundemental to undertand the activity of the business. I was thinking of attcahing a PDF only for the untagged P&L pages as part of my CT600 submission so that I have at least provided them will the information sent previously in hard copy. However I have read comments from others that HMRC are rejecting these submissions ! What are the experience of others?

Untagged P/L is perfectly acceptable to HMRC under minimum taggi

vtsoftware | Fri, 17/06/2011 - 14:21 | Permalink

As it happens, I have just checked that out with the software developers support team at HMRC.

Philip Hodgson
VT Software

Update

Martin B | Sat, 18/06/2011 - 14:05 | Permalink

Philip, the followiing was posted on 'Nicola Ross Martins' website yesterday

XBRL and detailed P & L accounts

We hear that some software is not tagging detailed P & L accounts. Software providers say that this is because a detailed P & L is not required in order to file full accounts under the provisions of the Companies Act.

HMRC does expect a detailed P & L for corporation tax purposes and so companies that are affected by there software issues are expected to attempt to tag their accounts. The P & L can be included as part of the accounts or part of the CT computation (if your software allows this).

If all else fails a P & L can be attached as a PDF. HMRC is opperating a soft landing for the next two years, but it expects agents to try hard to get things right.

 

iXBRL file and tagging

jeff968 | Sun, 19/06/2011 - 14:06 | Permalink

 Perhaps I'm being a bit thick, but the iXBRL file generated by VT includes the detailed P&L Account, if the sheets are selected.  Presumably, whilst these aren't tagged HMRC can view them if they so wish.  So what's the difference between this and attaching the detailed P&L Account as a PDF, which isn't tagged in any case?

 

Jeff Finnemore

nigelburge's picture

@Jeff

nigelburge | Sun, 19/06/2011 - 17:42 | Permalink

That is how I understood the situation as Philip has explained it.

It seems that HMRC just use the tagging for their own internal purposes. Untagged documents are still treated as "submitted" and can still be read by HMRC.

What a saga!

vtsoftware | Mon, 20/06/2011 - 14:08 | Permalink

For those interested, I've put all the arguments down at http://www.vtsoftware.co.uk/support/detailedpl.htm

This largely contradicts the comments reputed to Nicola Ross Martin's web site.

Can I please just ask...

MC1 | Mon, 20/06/2011 - 16:33 | Permalink

why do VT as a software company recommend submitting the detailed P&L, tagged or not, if there is no statutory requirement to do so?

Thank you

Reason for recommendation

vtsoftware | Tue, 21/06/2011 - 10:24 | Permalink
  • HMRC clearly want a detailed profit and loss account
  • It is common practice
  • Without one, your CT return might be rejected (falsely)

I love simplicity and I would love to say leave out the detailed p/l, but I cannot take the risk of being blamed for rejections.

Philip Hodgson
VT Software

Thank you

MC1 | Wed, 22/06/2011 - 10:18 | Permalink

I guess that makes sense.

Feedback from HMRC

vtsoftware | Wed, 22/06/2011 - 11:29 | Permalink

I've just had some useful feedback from HMRC and I have updated http://www.vtsoftware.co.uk/support/detailedpl.htm

The page now includes the following:

HMRC’s computers will not reject a corporation tax return because it does not contain a detailed profit and loss account. However, some tax offices have in the past rejected returns after submission because they did not contain a detailed profit and loss account. In June 2011 VT drew this matter and the contents of this web page to the attention of HMRC. HMRC informed VT that the consensus within HMRC was that a corporation tax return should not be rejected solely on the basis that it did not contain a detailed profit and loss account, and that steps were being taken to communicate this to the wider HMRC. However, HMRC emphasised that they very much wanted a detailed profit and loss account to be included with a corporation tax return.

Philip Hodgson
VT Software

Thank you Philip for your reply and update

Martin B | Fri, 24/06/2011 - 13:37 | Permalink

The following are in your summary points

-The detailed profit and loss account can be included as part of the accounts iXBRL file or the tax computation iXBRL file. Most companies do the former, but HMRC have expressed a preference for the latter

-Under the minimum tagging rules, the detailed profit and loss account must be tagged if it is included in the tax computation iXBRL file but not if it is included in the accounts iXBRL file

I use Taxcalc and my question is. How do i go about to include the detailed P&L as part of the corporation tax return? Is this a straight forward process. I know it is not a question for VT but how do others do it?

No need

vtsoftware | Fri, 24/06/2011 - 14:03 | Permalink

 I do not know the answer, but including the detailed p/l with the accounts is perfectly acceptable to HMRC.

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