Digital accounting records to be compulsory

Digital_record_1.jpg

iStock_digital_record_alengo
Tax Writer
Taxwriter Ltd
Columnist
Share this content
180

The government expects every business to keep its accounting records in a digital form.

This key requirement will under-pin Making Tax Digital (MTD), as was made clear in the MTD for business event held on 3 March. What’s more “digital form” doesn’t mean an Excel spreadsheet. Each business and landlord will have to use some form of accounting software which has a capability to communicate with HMRC’s systems. We expect further details on this software requirement to be included in one of the five consultation documents on MTD to be released shortly after the Budget.

However, moving to a commercial software package will mean extra costs and data transfer problems for many businesses who have created their own bespoke accounting software, or who rely on Excel spreadsheets. Della Hudson of Hudson Accountants agreed that new businesses can keep adequate records on a simple spreadsheet. She said: “We run basic bookkeeping workshops based on Excel for about 40 businesses per year.”

Hudson added: “I’m a technophile and a big Xero fan, but I still have clients who have no internet connection or computer, but keep beautiful handwritten ledgers.”

Elaine Clark chartered accountant, is less sympathetic to Excel-fans and technophobes. She is not surprised that HMRC is pushing for the end of paper records. Clark predicted that it will be a huge step-change for the self-employed, small businesses and also for accountants who have yet to start using cloud-based accounting.   

Without the use of internet-connected accounting software there will be no cost savings for businesses under the MTD project. HMRC has assumed that every business will seamlessly transfer a summary of accounting data from their accounting software to HMRC each quarter.

The end of the paper bag job may be welcomed by many accountants, but it’s going to be hard work to educate clients to use accounting software. Tony Magaritelli of the ICPA estimated that it will take three to four hours per client to ween them off their existing systems and bring them up to speed on new software. Where clients don’t want to (or can’t) use accounting software, an alternative may be to introduce them to Bankstream or similar products, which provide secure feeds of banking transactions directly into an accounting package on the accountant’s desk.

How are you gearing-up your clients for the end of paper? Do you see a bright digital future ahead or early retirement by 2018?

Replies

Please login or register to join the discussion.

By jlsmith
09th Mar 2016 14:15

Excel

I'm as technophile as much as the next person, but does HMRC have the mandate to, err, mandate this?  Is there legal backing?  What if a business refuses?  

HMRC got into trouble with this recently by forcing a tick-box which didn't have legal force, and had to back down.  Are we in similar territory?

Thanks (1)
By JAADAMS
09th Mar 2016 14:27

Elaine hasnt met one of my clients...

.. his girlfriend dragged him in into my office because she wants a mortgage and for that they need self employed accounts. He is 27 years old - never had a bank account - no passport and cant drive (his mate takes him to work) he is paid using those old paper envelopes (if you remember them). He doesnt have a computer.

Many of our clients still use pieces of paper. I havent told any of my such clients that the system is changing.

Accweb will be keeping a close watch on the consultation documents as they are issued and will be asking members for their comments. We will then be submitting responses on members behalf

 

Thanks (10)
By jlsmith
09th Mar 2016 14:28

Apologies for the double post, but again, with Excel, I would have thought it would be perfectly possible to build an Excel template which would fire data in the required format to HMRC systems...?  Can HMRC object to that?

Thanks (1)
avatar
10th Mar 2016 09:30

Objection likely

jlsmith wrote:

Apologies for the double post, but again, with Excel, I would have thought it would be perfectly possible to build an Excel template which would fire data in the required format to HMRC systems...?  Can HMRC object to that?

Probably yes because Excel isn't provided by one of the software providers Gaulke is in bed with

Thanks (3)

Eh?

Since when to HMRC get to dictate how my clients run their record keeping?

So long as the profit for tax is correct, that is all that matters.

Mr Gauke has got he head up his backside on this one, no doubt the hard lobbying from the software companies about how great all of this is paying off. 

This makes RTI and auto-enrolment look like a warm up session in how to plaster small businesses in red tape, and what really sticks in the throat is there is no WHY, other then enriching software companies

That is to say there simply does not seem to be a purpose.  

It is quite frankly insulting to hear them keep on bleating about cost savings which are clearly not going to arise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks (9)
avatar
By ahills
10th Mar 2016 12:37

...

ireallyshouldknowthisbut wrote:

Since when to HMRC get to dictate how my clients run their record keeping?

So long as the profit for tax is correct, that is all that matters.

Mr Gauke has got he head up his backside on this one, no doubt the hard lobbying from the software companies about how great all of this is paying off. 

This makes RTI and auto-enrolment look like a warm up session in how to plaster small businesses in red tape, and what really sticks in the throat is there is no WHY, other then enriching software companies

That is to say there simply does not seem to be a purpose.  

It is quite frankly insulting to hear them keep on bleating about cost savings which are clearly not going to arise.

There are cost savings ... but only for HMRC!  It will cost the tax payers more though!

 

It's a stealth tax, rather than increase tax to cover additional required spending, instead they pass the cost direct to the taxpayer.

 

Thanks (0)
avatar
09th Mar 2016 15:09

Why and they forcing this through?

jokers - total and utter clueless jokers. It will not work and cannot work and is a total disgrace. It will distroy many business and push costs up. Get rid of red tape and this is red tape and extra admin

Thanks (4)
avatar
By CJaneH
09th Mar 2016 15:16

I Agree with above

Should not the mandarins who believe this is possible all do a months work experience in office that deal with small traders.

Thanks (3)
avatar
09th Mar 2016 15:24

Future

i dont see a future in the UK running a business potentially as the UK is run by idiots and HMRC are trying to bring in a system which will cause mayhem. I pay my tax and it has been quite high so I make a good contribution to HMRC. 

we need and urgent enquiry into the workings of HMRC and government.

 

Thanks (10)
avatar
09th Mar 2016 15:34

Lunacy

Exactly how do they suggest that some upland farmer who still thinks electricity is the devil’s work is going to digitise his records?  I know of farmers who have no internet access and no chance of getting it.   

Any HMRC approved accounts package is going to cost money, it doesn’t matter if it’s £10 or £1,000, are HMRC going to pay for it?  I am unaware of any legal basis enabling HMRC to dictate to taxpayers how they should spend their money.

This sounds like something you would expect in North Korea, not the UK.

I suspect there will be challenges in court if they attempt to go ahead with this ridiculous idea. 

Thanks (4)

Some ministerial comments may add to the picture

These comments are extracted from a speech that Treasury secretary David Gauke made at an Armstrong Watson event in Carlisle last week. He doesn't come out and say it directly, but the direction of travel is very clear... along with his rose-coloured view of how great the RTI implementation was. For the minister's benefit, I have highlighted a couple of questionable statements (2m is 36% of 5.5m - only in Westminster does that constitute a majority!).

"Some have said that it is overly ambitious to rely on digital as the primary channel. The fact is that we are going with the grain of the way small businesses are already moving. The benefits of digitisation are readily accepted by the majority of small- and medium-sized organisations.

"And whilst there has been plenty of debate on the challenges – a lot of that online – I am heartened see that many businesses, and their agents, are already forging ahead. Already, 2 million small and medium-sized businesses are using software for their payroll and their VAT.

"We’ve also seen the rise of companies providing digital accounting services, using exactly the sort of technology and processes that will be needed when we make tax fully digital.

"Just last week, I met FreeAgent, one such company, whose software is already being used by 45,000 customers. And we are working with other innovative firms, such as Intuit and Xero. That is where the market is heading…

“I acknowledge the concerns raised about the pace of these reforms. There were similar concerns around online filing and real-time information. However, HMRC’s impressive track record in implementing those changes speaks for itself - working with interested parties we can match this success.”

Thanks (0)
By Glennzy
09th Mar 2016 16:43

Impressive Track Record - Must have missed that.

John Stokdyk wrote:

T

“I acknowledge the concerns raised about the pace of these reforms. There were similar concerns around online filing and real-time information. However, HMRC’s impressive track record in implementing those changes speaks for itself - working with interested parties we can match this success.”

Impressive track record!!!!!!

Is he taking the piss. SA and RTI were brought in about 4 years behind the original intended dates, RTI still does not work as it should.

This is probably a far bigger undertaking and I predict the implementation will be as poor as earlier projects, will massively over run on both time and costs

and be chaotic for those actually using the system, and be far from impressive.

Thanks (2)
09th Mar 2016 17:03

Culprits

John Stokdyk wrote:

"Just last week, I met FreeAgent, one such company, whose software is already being used by 45,000 customers. And we are working with other innovative firms, such as Intuit and Xero. That is where the market is heading…

 

So we know who to blame for feeding Gauke this b*llsh*t.

Thanks (6)
avatar
10th Mar 2016 13:07

Ministerial delusion

The man is quite clearly deluded if he thinks RTI has been implemented seamlessly - it has been a disaster from the start.  We are still having problems with 2013 RTI submissions which have been duplicated and HMRC cannot sort them out!  Quite obviously a ploy to raise funds by issuing penalties for non filing or late filing.  The whole system is a joke.  It is going to mean a cost for accountants to buy software to do more book-keeping jobs because the clients are just not going to do it, nor are they going to want to pay for it.

Thanks (0)
avatar
10th Mar 2016 15:32

A long way to go for XERO

I don't know how Xero became high profile with HMRC.  Although you can submit VAT Returns from Xero YOU CANNOT submit your accounts as Xero do not have iXBRL capability.  So they have a lot of work to do.  The payroll still has glitches so if the accounts submission suddenly becomes available and there are problems who will pay the price.  I bet it is not XERO

Thanks (0)
avatar
14th Mar 2016 13:26

Small business definition ?

John Stokdyk wrote:
The benefits of digitisation are readily accepted by the majority of small- and medium-sized organisations.

I remember listening to a discussion about RTI on Radio 4 in the car one day, there was classic remark from an HMRC spokeswoman who said there "would be no problem for small businesses. Why, only yesterday I was talking to the finance director of a small business......."  !

Thanks (1)

.

In terms of the "why" I can only assume as this makes is easy for "big brother government" to have full access to a business records - without asking.  its a bit harder to hack my PC and pull up the spreadsheet (well unless its emailed, then its easy to obtain via an order to the email host to hand it over)

The only people to benefit from this will be the cloud computing suppliers whom Mr Gauke must fancy a cosy directorship post or something the way he is acting. 

I cant even see how HMRC will benefit from a tidal wave of  unfiltered data flooding their systems. 

Thanks (1)
avatar
09th Mar 2016 16:04

Thanks John

None of this pulls together all of the information easily to produce a tax return though. It is more involved as any accountant will tell them.

Yes VAT Returns and payroll was made digital - compulsary. But they are not as complicated as preparing a tax return.

I am making moves to get out of accounting but I do have another business that will be effected. 27 years as an accountant - but this is too much. I have enough of the loonies who are not fit for the role. They simply do not listen. They do not consult properly. It is doomed!!  

 

 

Thanks (5)
avatar
By KenKLM
14th Mar 2016 18:09

Retirement ?

I am feeling pretty much the same . The tax system gets more and more compicated and cant help but think this is a result of far too many cooks justifying their salaries coming up with unworkable ideas . Thinking of bringing my retirement forward to be free of HMRC .

Thanks (1)
avatar
09th Mar 2016 16:10

Duh!

Appendix 5 of this government's policy paper on business regulation includes the following

"The government wants to minimise the burden that new regulations impose on small businesses, especially on companies with fewer than 10 employees (micro-businesses)"

Appendix 6 includes:

"We want business to lead the economic recovery. So we need to remove all unnecessary burdens on business, making sure regulators continue to provide important protections."

Perhaps someone forgot to read it?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/2010-to-2015-government-polic...

Thanks (6)

.

Re John's point, about the record in RTI speaking for itself.

indeed, this caused a huge amount of work, a lot of confusion and stress, and the end result is more work on a monthly basis than before, less small employers able to process payroll themselves as its just too hard, and widespread non-compliance with some of the dafter rules such as filing on or before payment. 

HMRC dont use the data for any purpose (only at the year end does it get ported over to the SA records etc),  is full of bugs and glitches and has little real practical purpose.

The main benefactors have been firms running payrolls who can charge to navigate the nightmare, and the IT firms who put it in.

On that basis, I am sure these new lark will be equally as good.

 

Thanks (0)
avatar
By ringi
07th Apr 2016 13:36

RTI data is used for benfits...

ireallyshouldknowthisbut wrote:

Re John's point, about the record in RTI speaking for itself.

indeed, this caused a huge amount of work, a lot of confusion and stress, and the end result is more work on a monthly basis than before, less small employers able to process payroll themselves as its just too hard, and widespread non-compliance with some of the dafter rules such as filing on or before payment. 

HMRC dont use the data for any purpose (only at the year end does it get ported over to the SA records etc),  is full of bugs and glitches and has little real practical purpose.

The RTI data is used to updates peoples benefits, it will soon be used to allow tax payers with more the one job to see a "real time" tax account on-line.  Universal Credit totally depends on RTI data, as it response to what someone earns each month.

 

Thanks (0)
07th Apr 2016 13:45

Great, but ....

ringi wrote:

ireallyshouldknowthisbut wrote:

Re John's point, about the record in RTI speaking for itself.

indeed, this caused a huge amount of work, a lot of confusion and stress, and the end result is more work on a monthly basis than before, less small employers able to process payroll themselves as its just too hard, and widespread non-compliance with some of the dafter rules such as filing on or before payment. 

HMRC dont use the data for any purpose (only at the year end does it get ported over to the SA records etc),  is full of bugs and glitches and has little real practical purpose.

The RTI data is used to updates peoples benefits, it will soon be used to allow tax payers with more the one job to see a "real time" tax account on-line.  Universal Credit totally depends on RTI data, as it response to what someone earns each month.

Great, but it still depends on the information being right.

Strange - but you'd have thought HMRC would be keen to have taxpayers represented, given that they seem to be doing less and less themselves. But they seem to be discouraging representation, leading to a general reduction in profits as taxpayers make random claims for unlikely expenses.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By ringi
07th Apr 2016 14:16

Most tax payers will NEVER be represented

lionofludesch wrote:

Great, but it still depends on the information being right.

Strange - but you'd have thought HMRC would be keen to have taxpayers represented, given that they seem to be doing less and less themselves. But they seem to be discouraging representation, leading to a general reduction in profits as taxpayers make random claims for unlikely expenses.

 

Most tax payers will NEVER be represented, have never filled in a tax return, have never claimed any expenses, but yet these people now often have many part-time jobs and are on benefits that change depending on their monthly income.     There is no way without HMRC getting real-time information that there is any possibility of their tax or benefits being correct.

The changes to interest taxation now mean that 99% of people just need to answer a single question:  “Have you got less than £500 bank interest in the last year?”  Yet all I read is people complaining it make life more complex for the other 1% of people!

The concept of “tax codes” needs replacing with something that works, or we have to except that a lot of the population will be given a new tax code each month, as the income from each of their jobs is not predictable.

Sorry but the hill farmer without internet access should not be defining how the tax and benefit system works.   Dong a 3 monthly return for your clients instead of a yearly return should not take more total time, and should avoid the issue with 50% of the workload for an accountant being in 1 month of the year.   Most people have enough brain power to cope with change, the rest seem to be clients of accountingweb members....

Thanks (0)
avatar
07th Apr 2016 16:14

no more time?

ringi wrote:

Dong a 3 monthly return for your clients instead of a yearly return should not take more total time, and should avoid the issue with 50% of the workload for an accountant being in 1 month of the year.   Most people have enough brain power to cope with change, the rest seem to be clients of accountingweb members....

 

Really?

4 returns = more than 4 times the work. Until we can "train" our clients to let us have the information in time for the return we will have to chase for it 4 times a year!

There will be an increase in the admin work necessary just to process the information. Who is going to pay for that?

This will eventually go down when everything is online and banks and companies will send us all details about our clients electronically or we will be able to down load the information from the HMRC web site! Still have to cheeck it though as HMRC seem prone to errors for some reason.

 

Thanks (0)
08th Apr 2016 14:13

Shopping

ringi wrote:

Doing a 3 monthly return for your clients instead of a yearly return should not take more total time, and should avoid the issue with 50% of the workload for an accountant being in 1 month of the year.  

 

In the same way I will tell my wife tonight that she will find it so much easier and convenient to do her Sainsbury's shopping 4 times a week instead of once. 

Thanks (1)
08th Apr 2016 15:18

Another dreamer

ringi wrote:

Sorry but the hill farmer without internet access should not be defining how the tax and benefit system works.   Dong a 3 monthly return for your clients instead of a yearly return should not take more total time, and should avoid the issue with 50% of the workload for an accountant being in 1 month of the year.   Most people have enough brain power to cope with change, the rest seem to be clients of accountingweb members....

There are, of course, good changes and bad changes.  Changes which are good for the Government are often bad for taxpayers.

Setting aside the arrant nonsense that four returns, apparently, are the same as one return, we still have the issue of whether these submissions are to be cash or accruals based and, if cash, is that what the tax will be based on  ?

Are we to have small traders robbed of Capital Allowances properly due to them ?   Or personal allowances wasted because a debtor didn't pay on time ?  Or unable to use losses except by carry forward ?

Only a fool would see that there weren't concerns here.   Those concerns might be addressed by the Government.  They might not.  Given the timescales they have set, what is certain is that April 2018 will come too soon.

Thanks (0)
By jlsmith
09th Mar 2016 16:17

"The government wants to

"The government wants to minimise the burden that new regulations impose on small businesses, especially on companies with fewer than 10 employees (micro-businesses)"

... by taxing them as sole traders!!

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3478190/Corporation-tax-...

 

Thanks (0)
By Glennzy
09th Mar 2016 16:38

So for a landlord who has 1 property each month he receives the rent and pays the mortgage.

He is now going to be expected to pay for and maintain some bookkeeping software to record the 2 transactions per month.

This is after he has lost his interest relief, wear and tear allowance and now has to pay tax on income he doesn't actually receive.

Who makes this crap up.

Surely there should be a level where the basic data can be entered into the system like you can now using HMRC tools. 

Thanks (11)
avatar
22nd Mar 2016 11:48

Hear hear

I agree wholeheartedly about this - these small Landlords aren't businesses for the things that matter such as interest relief etc but when it comes to compulsion over business records then this activity which is quite clearly (?) investment suddenly becomes business.

I think we have to stop classing people who simply don't want to keep there records via an app or cloud as somehow luddites - it should be entirely up to the individual what records thy keep provided that at the end of the da they pay the correct tax on the basis of correctly prepared computation. As far as I am aware there is nothing in e legislation that determines the form of accounting records and we shouldn't allow a the State to determine that sort of detail. Until the generation who didn't grow up wit Apps and the cloud are no longer engaged with the tax system there should be acceptance of the fact hat there will be those who don't want - for whatever reason - to use these methods of information transfer.

 

 

 

Thanks (1)
avatar
22nd Mar 2016 16:16

I second this

AmandaElliott wrote:

I agree wholeheartedly about this - these small Landlords aren't businesses for the things that matter such as interest relief etc but when it comes to compulsion over business records then this activity which is quite clearly (?) investment suddenly becomes business.

I think we have to stop classing people who simply don't want to keep there records via an app or cloud as somehow luddites - it should be entirely up to the individual what records thy keep provided that at the end of the da they pay the correct tax on the basis of correctly prepared computation. As far as I am aware there is nothing in e legislation that determines the form of accounting records and we shouldn't allow a the State to determine that sort of detail. Until the generation who didn't grow up wit Apps and the cloud are no longer engaged with the tax system there should be acceptance of the fact hat there will be those who don't want - for whatever reason - to use these methods of information transfer.

 

 

 

I couldn't agree more. I am a child of the 70s so grew up with the technological revolution. I use computers, smartphones and cloud for storage. But I can;t see how focusing my smartphone camera on a receipt one by one, then choosing a category, is simpler than analysing a box of receipts on a spreadsheet and then completing a tax return with the short self-employment page.

It should NOT be compulsory. If they wish to legislate quarterly payments on account (or even a shorter annual filing date than January) then so be it, that is a FAR simpler solution.

Thanks (3)
avatar
By ringi
07th Apr 2016 13:57

Most landlords with 1 property will be exempt

Glennzy wrote:

So for a landlord who has 1 property each month he receives the rent and pays the mortgage.

He is now going to be expected to pay for and maintain some bookkeeping software to record the 2 transactions per month.

...............

Surely there should be a level where the basic data can be entered into the system like you can now using HMRC tools. 

Firstly if someone has just 1 BTL and has employment income, they will come under the limit to have to do 3 monthly returns.    I am also expecting that there will be a full set of on-line tools form HMRC where the total rent etc can be entered.

The real issue I see is that most bank will still not allow me to connect any book keeping software to my bank account.   As a landlord, 100% of my transactions are on my bank statement.

Thanks (0)
avatar
09th Mar 2016 17:10

presumably 'Elaine'

will be happy in 4 years when all of her personal accounts will need to be provided in the same way (to confirm interest received and check she isn't depositing business income into her personal accounts - only to check...if you haven't done anything wrong you need not worry...)

it seems the government want open access to everybody's financial affairs - this appears to be the starting point, and already they have people jumping on the band wagon because it suits their view of technology but are unable to see the bigger picture.  

Thanks (1)
avatar
09th Mar 2016 17:28

So in essence HMRC want one-man accountants and one-man businesses to no longer exist

Thanks (9)
avatar
09th Mar 2016 18:41

Of the 2 million already using software....
Of the 2 million already using software, does Davud Gauke know how many of these businesses use the software themselves and how many are accountants using it on behalf of their clients? I'm sure that business that file their own RTI and VAT returns must be in the minority.

All politicians should be forced to work in the real world before making up crazy new rules that have no benefit to anyone least of all the small business community. How on earth can this be simplifying and reducing red tape? Quite the opposite.

Thanks (6)
avatar
09th Mar 2016 17:58

Time to give HMRC their P45 for Gross Misconduct I think!

None of my clients do any of their accounts,, VAT or payroll - they are too busy doing their jobs and that is why they have me do it all for them.

Some of them don't want the headache of doing it and others wouldn't know where to begin!

None of this digital tax will work and will just create utter chaos for HMRC and the small business owner.

Small businesses cannot afford to pay for all this on top of AE costs etc.

The reason a lot of my clients started being self-employed was because of the high unemployment which no doubt will happen again with the introduction of the National Living Wage.

God help us - this country is being run by idiots!

 

Thanks (1)
avatar
09th Mar 2016 18:10

I predict that in a few years we will see the following headline

David Gauke appointed to boards of Intuit and Xero. 

Thanks (11)
avatar
09th Mar 2016 19:18

end of small business

This stupidity will kill off the very small business or more likely send it underground. Having woked with small busnesses at the small end of the market I can honestly say that 20%  of businesses will be discontnued or fail to set up if this s brought in

Thanks (1)
avatar
09th Mar 2016 20:02

So much for Tories being the champion of small business

Petroken wrote:

This stupidity will kill off the very small business or more likely send it underground. Having woked with small busnesses at the small end of the market I can honestly say that 20%  of businesses will be discontnued or fail to set up if this s brought in

Precisely. Maybe David Corbyn isn't a bad alternative after all. He can't be any worse than the current administration.

Thanks (1)
09th Mar 2016 21:45

Jeremy Cameron

cstwragby wrote:

Petroken wrote:

This stupidity will kill off the very small business or more likely send it underground. Having woked with small busnesses at the small end of the market I can honestly say that 20%  of businesses will be discontnued or fail to set up if this s brought in

Precisely. Maybe David Corbyn isn't a bad alternative after all. He can't be any worse than the current administration.

Do you mean Jeremy Cameron?

Thanks (4)
avatar
09th Mar 2016 22:07

Fury causes mistakes

petersaxton wrote:

cstwragby wrote:

Petroken wrote:

This stupidity will kill off the very small business or more likely send it underground. Having woked with small busnesses at the small end of the market I can honestly say that 20%  of businesses will be discontnued or fail to set up if this s brought in

Precisely. Maybe David Corbyn isn't a bad alternative after all. He can't be any worse than the current administration.

Do you mean Jeremy Cameron?

You see, this has got me so wound up I am mixing the names up now!

Thanks (0)
avatar
24th Mar 2016 14:57

Well , if you think this is stupid you will indeed find the very description of stupid under a corbyn govt.

Anyway, is there a new petition setup to kill this before it's born? I'll ensure all my clients sign it.

Thanks (1)
avatar
09th Mar 2016 21:59

Is this nanny state or stasi

Also today's buzz phrase from supreme court Real Life, how does that fit in, is digitisation real life or a covilusion

Thanks (0)
avatar
10th Mar 2016 10:00

Accountancy Institutes

Why are the accountancy institutes not making it quite clear to the politicians that this isn't going to happen?

Thanks (16)
avatar
By DMGbus
10th Mar 2016 13:17

ICPA and FSB are opposing the quarterly rerporting

Two business organisations I see are in fact publicly opposing the seemingly unworkable quarterly reporting proposals, ie. ICPA and FSB.

Now, if ICAEW are not making noise about the proposals then that possibly might suggest that ICAEW is a business organisation controlled by the top five or six (by size) accountancy firms who might well benefit from the proposals (lots of extra work for them which will be billable at a high hourly rate).  The fact that at least one of these top five or six ICAEW member firms has partnered up with an online bookkeeping portal could be viewed by cynics as an indication that they had a "inside track" knowledge of these proposals before they were made public.

What I have NOT seen is a an Impact Assessment outlining the cost to business of the proposals.  If accurately stated this could make interesting reading.

Thanks (2)
10th Mar 2016 10:08

Mixed messages

The government said that it was the "end of the annual tax return" as if that wouldn't be replaced by "quarterly tax returns". Then they said there would be "quarterly returns" which wouldn't be "quarterly tax returns" but now they seem to be saying that there WILL be "quarterly tax returns"!

Thanks (1)

Hands rubbing

Remember it won't just be the three software companies named by Mr Gauke who will be supporting these proposals https://www.crunch.co.uk/blog/inside-crunch/2016/03/10/meeting-minister-...

My two immediate thoughts are:

No mention of Sage in his list of "innovative firms". Oh how the mighty have fallenThe software companies named may be uncomfortable being seen as friends of the playground bully here

Thanks (2)

2m really??

2m companies are using software for their payroll and VAT, really?

I presume that includes the ones who use the basic HMRC PAYE tools and submit their VAT directly through the HMRC website (of which no one has a choice)

I can't see that there's 2m companies using "proper" software

Xero reckon they've 100,000 licences in the UK

They also reckon Sage have 125,000 Line 50 licences 

Freeagent have 45,000 licences

Kashflow, Clearbooks and all the other cloud apps will be less than that I presume?

Intuit is growing in the UK, but I guess Quickbooks licence numbers are behind Sage and Xero (nothing scientific there, just I meet very few QB users)

So where are the rest??

Thanks (3)
10th Mar 2016 11:02

Includes

Stewie Griffin wrote:

2m companies are using software for their payroll and VAT, really?

I presume that includes the ones who use the basic HMRC PAYE tools and submit their VAT directly through the HMRC website (of which no one has a choice)

I can't see that there's 2m companies using "proper" software

Xero reckon they've 100,000 licences in the UK

They also reckon Sage have 125,000 Line 50 licences 

Freeagent have 45,000 licences

Kashflow, Clearbooks and all the other cloud apps will be less than that I presume?

Intuit is growing in the UK, but I guess Quickbooks licence numbers are behind Sage and Xero (nothing scientific there, just I meet very few QB users)

So where are the rest??

The 2m includes 1.9m who bought the software and then stopped using it because they realised software was just a tool and not a solution.

I had a client who said he wanted to use accounting software. I said: "What's the point if you wont tell me what the receipts and payments relate to?" He said: "Doesn't the software do that?"

Thanks (1)

GIGO

petersaxton wrote:

I had a client who said he wanted to use accounting software. I said: "What's the point if you wont tell me what the receipts and payments relate to?" He said: "Doesn't the software do that?"

Garbage in garbage out is the phrase that comes to mind.

Thanks (7)

Pages