OTS review: Seismic changes for small business

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Change on the Richter scale is on the way if recommendations from the Office of Tax Simplification (OTS) for changes to small company taxation get the go ahead, say Philip and Sarah McNeill.

A new ‘look through’ company, taxing shareholders rather than the company, is among far-reaching proposals put forward in the latest OTS review.

This is the third time the OTS has entered the lists. Simplification for small unincorporated businesses and partnerships has already come under the spotlight. Last week’s publication completes this round of reviews.

The micro business

The review focuses on the ‘micro’ business. This is the business with fewer than 10 employees, structured as a company. The UK has more than 1.3m of them. The largest slice of the incorporated market, these are the heartland of most high street practices.

“A company with a few staff should not face the same burdens as a multinational.” This is the starting point from the OTS Chair, Angela Knight. She is probably preaching to the converted; at Accounting Web, no one is likely to quibble with the need to make the system and more user friendly for small companies.

Look through

The real bombshell proposal is the ‘look through’ company, something they have already in countries like New Zealand. Instead of paying corporation tax, company shareholders would be charged to income tax on profits. The OTS thinks this modus operandi could make life simpler for some companies. This is one of two key structural changes that the OTS intends to look at in more detail.

Structural change

The second structural proposal is also revolutionary. This is the SEPA – the sole enterprise with protected assets. In other words, a new business entity – a model for trading that gives some limited liability protection without the need for formal incorporation.

Simpler administration

OTS and the micro businesses they talked with would welcome a package of changes to administration. Streamlined, joined up registration and reporting processes, including between HMRC and Companies House, for one.

Aligning VAT and PAYE filing and payment dates, annual returns and corporation tax; advance clearances for VAT; a ‘truly digital’ service with pop ups and prompts to completing online forms, for another.

 And – can you imagine an out of hours service from HMRC? Providing extra evening and weekend support, when small company owners deal with their tax?

What next?

As yet, these are just proposals aimed for the longer term. The review states that at present, opinion is divided on look through. “Many respondents to the OTS consultation were strongly in favour ... just as many strongly against,” says the review.

But the OTS is intending to do more work on these areas. You can contact the OTS with your input here.

Simplifying the corporation tax calculation, eliminating some tax allowances and for the smallest companies, potentially calculating on a cash basis, is another area suggested for the longer term. OTS hopes that the government itself will take this forward.

Looking ahead

As the Review says, “Helped by new technology and platforms, the trend is for people increasingly choosing to be their own boss ... Many are sole traders who have chosen to incorporate to limit their liability, to enhance their credibility and to provide a more formal business structure.”

The Review has taken a bold and imaginative look at possible changes.  The challenge is going to be in the implementation:  if look through and SEPA should become mandatory, there is a potential risk of taking  – on present reckoning – half the micro business population out of its comfort zone.

If, on the other hand, they were opt-in structures, would we then face greater diversity in the name of simplicity? Whatever the proposals taken forward, there is no doubt that changes to the micro business population on the scale envisaged here, stands to leave a large footprint in the corporate market.  

Philip and Sarah McNeill
Tax writers and lecturers
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12th Mar 2016 11:43

Fairer contribution?
Hopefully any changes will stop the rampant National Insurance avoidance that takes place in many small companies.

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By kjevans
14th Mar 2016 13:16

So all micro businesses are tax dodgers ...?

What "rampant NI Avoidance"? I suppose you mean taking dividends instead of salary? Why is it only NI avoidance when done my a small business? Personally, I think all dividends should be taxed at a higher rate than wages. Many small business owners get next to nothing from NI and also don't earn much which ever way you look at it, so why not use a legal way of paying less tax.

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By redboam
14th Mar 2016 08:30

Why on earth do they bother?

For years we have had assurances from all political parties that they will decrease the burden of regulation on small businesses. Instead as this latest example shows the exact opposite is actually the case. Given the cost of managing such "initiatives" what possible economic benefits can flow from this sort of thing?

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14th Mar 2016 12:44

Stability please

will they please leave it all alone. we need stability and less red tape. cash accounting is wrong pure and simple. Accruals accounting is correct. Small co accounts has always been fine with the FRSSE. Why does it always have to change. There is too much change. Too much burden. Why why why???  Digital accounts, 4 times a year, AE, etc etc

leave it alone or you will ruin us

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14th Mar 2016 19:06

Couldn't agree more

steve 12321 wrote:

will they please leave it all alone. we need stability and less red tape. cash accounting is wrong pure and simple. Accruals accounting is correct. Small co accounts has always been fine with the FRSSE. Why does it always have to change. There is too much change. Too much burden. Why why why???  Digital accounts, 4 times a year, AE, etc etc

leave it alone or you will ruin us

Hear, hear.

 

 

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By funn
14th Mar 2016 12:49

2% Turnover tax for MicroCompanies beneath the VAT level. Full Stop

Turnover is easy to check. 2% is easy to calculate. No Accountants

filing etc needed...One page of A4 .. Bliss.

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By kjevans
14th Mar 2016 13:27

No business should pay tax on turnover; only on profit. What happens if a business invests its money in new equipment to allow for future growth and so make a loss hat year - they shoudl pay tax on a loss (which they would if there was a turnover tax). What on earth is wrong with 20% tax on profits as it is now for small Ltds?

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14th Mar 2016 12:55

stupid idea.  Pay 20% tax on

Pay 20% tax on taxable profits. simple. 

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14th Mar 2016 12:57

The reason why most

business with staff and vAT registered incorporate is to stop big business taking them to he cleaners by slow payments or just shutting one of their many branches down. What chance has a small business got?

I wonder how much Government influence this unitiative had. I see stagnation on the horizon. I bet Jeremy is rubbing his hands with glee.

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14th Mar 2016 12:58

Agreed this will just totally confuse everyone, and as to an out of hours service for HMRC I cannot see that happening as they cant be bothered to pick up the phone between 9  and 5  ! 

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14th Mar 2016 13:13

just let them sink the ship

More tax

more penalties

Just looking at a taxpayer that tried to file own tax returns, no tax to pay just penalties > £2K for not getting to grips with digitalisation and electronic filing.

What we need is regime change, out of europe for a start.

Why did we spend all that time in search of acounting rules that worked only to tear it up because government psycho's don't understand.

War in europe may well be the answer.

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14th Mar 2016 13:23

How is this simplification?

I understood OTS was the Office for Tax Simplification.  Why is it adding complication, perhaps it addresses anything that is obviously too simple.  Given Angela Knight has previously been apologist for the UK Energy Industry and Banking trades associations, it's hardly surprising she is on the side of the big concerns rather than the majority of the end users of the system, the poor bloody taxpayers.

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By markad3
14th Mar 2016 13:29

OTS review
Successive governments have eroded any ' perks' to being in business and taxed everything possible. Many small business owners work exceptional hours to make a success of things. The risk and dedication are never taken into account. The government should be encouraging business by looking at the big picture instead of seeing how much more they can squeeze.

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By 0098087
14th Mar 2016 13:31

I am afraid yet again people are coming up with this nonsense who have no idea the way things work. 

 

It's just like H of C. Professional politicians on both sides of the house. No idea.

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14th Mar 2016 13:33

Tax on losses - where have we heard that one before?

HMRC likes a bit of tax being paid on losses. Landlords tax is a disgrace- denial of mortgage interest relief against rental income is shocker - paint it (spin it) however you like, it is an appalling proposal with an outcome that is unjust, unfair and just plain wrong. 

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By Ammie
14th Mar 2016 13:37

BRING IT ON

I am very sure some government ministers, and for that matter other high profile individuals, would welcome such a move to curb their own such companies.

Sounds like a similar case to the Google, Amazon, Starbucks etc cry of unfair tax avoidance, not in the spirit of tax laws.

They should all stop crying and conditioning the public and each other and get on with the changes. The reality is they are uneasy about upsetting their own and are just testing the water. The grandest avoidance schemes, world wide, were born by just such hierarchy within these shores.

I will deal with whatever they dish up or get out of the game.

 

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14th Mar 2016 13:37

Want Real Simplification?

If they want real simplification, then they need to appoint real small business owners to chair these meetings and come up with ideas, not large corporates who (with all due respect) have no idea how hard it is to run a small business or how many hours a week people spend running them.

Here's some ideas for simplification: merge income tax and NIC for employees.  Scrap employers NIC on the proviso that all employers NIC is passed through to employees as higher wages (so more tax to offset the loss in revenue from scrapping it.  Adjust all rates to make this tax neutral.

Adopt the Irish tax system for owner/directors (basically no employer NIC on salary, which then makes paying either salary or dividends tax neutral after merging IT/NIC).  Adopt the Irish system for one stop tax payments with ONE reference number to deal with all taxes, rather than having one for each type of tax.

Stop coming up with gimmick taxes.

Reward business owners rather than penalise them.

Scrap the idea of quarterly reporting for micro businesses.

And so many more, but I've a business to run and endless forms to complete to comply with the thousands of rules surrounding trying to run a business.

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By 68fw
14th Mar 2016 14:24

are we (not devo) conscenting adults?

 

Y'all know... there will come a time when HMRC needs reminding that self employed small business/company taxation is in fact, consensual.

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14th Mar 2016 14:29

how to distinguish

between a company with shareholders who work in the business and those that don't.

As I cannot get my computer to click to the OTS page I have to comment here.

Why should it be necessary effectively to distribute the whole of profit!

Just another thing for a layman to misunderstand.

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14th Mar 2016 14:58

Landlords need to give the Government the crash they desire.

pure and simple they bought property that was overvalued, financed it by debt on interest only mortgages then failed to make a profit and now the government wants to tax you on profit you are not making.  Sitting on negative equity the government thinks it has you trapped.

Perhaps it is a tax on stupid or just bully boy taxation.

We are delaying the inevitable. The objective is clearly to crash the UK economy.

Planning points for the future:

Make staff redundant they will be better off as government workers anyway.

Do not start a business best plan is work for someone else.

Do not train there is no value in it just another government bill.

Start your own baby factory for tax credits do some shelf packing at tescos untaxed maintenance off 4 former boyfriends and it's happy days. Guys you need to start value billing.

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16th Mar 2016 06:20

Mass folding of businesses

The Black Knight wrote:

Landlords need to give the Government the crash they desire.

pure and simple they bought property that was overvalued, financed it by debt on interest only mortgages then failed to make a profit and now the government wants to tax you on profit you are not making.  Sitting on negative equity the government thinks it has you trapped.

Perhaps it is a tax on stupid or just bully boy taxation.

We are delaying the inevitable. The objective is clearly to crash the UK economy.

Planning points for the future:

Make staff redundant they will be better off as government workers anyway.

Do not start a business best plan is work for someone else.

Do not train there is no value in it just another government bill.

Start your own baby factory for tax credits do some shelf packing at tescos untaxed maintenance off 4 former boyfriends and it's happy days. Guys you need to start value billing.

Trouble is, the someone else you might want to work for is also subject to this crap so everyone will be folding. I can see the massive problems the government is causing and all these idiots suggesting this stuff ahead.

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16th Mar 2016 06:31

Mass folding of businesses

The Black Knight wrote:

Landlords need to give the Government the crash they desire.

pure and simple they bought property that was overvalued, financed it by debt on interest only mortgages then failed to make a profit and now the government wants to tax you on profit you are not making.  Sitting on negative equity the government thinks it has you trapped.

Perhaps it is a tax on stupid or just bully boy taxation.

We are delaying the inevitable. The objective is clearly to crash the UK economy.

Planning points for the future:

Make staff redundant they will be better off as government workers anyway.

Do not start a business best plan is work for someone else.

Do not train there is no value in it just another government bill.

Start your own baby factory for tax credits do some shelf packing at tescos untaxed maintenance off 4 former boyfriends and it's happy days. Guys you need to start value billing.

Trouble is, the someone else you might want to work for is also subject to this crap so everyone will be folding. I can see the massive problems the government is causing and all these idiots suggesting this stuff ahead. We sure have an anti-business, anti-landlord, anti success, highly taxing, highly regulating government. Heading towards the worst tax system in the developed world should be their manta. My head spins at the constant, relentless at attacks, tinkering, politics , spin, misinformation, Etc. if we need to raise money just increase income tax, corporation tax, vat, (not NI anymore- too many tax increases here) and stop this nonsense. Business needs unshackling. Encourage it. Help it. Don't screw it up

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14th Mar 2016 15:04

Just shows how utterly clueless the OTS is if they are even discussing this "look through" tax system. It's absolutely condescending of this lady Angela Knight to talk about small companies as if they are irrelevant and all just pay out their full profit. A great deal of small companies don't pay out all their profit because they want to reinvest later down the line into marketing, new staff, etc etc or want to take it out when it suits them (are we allowed to even plan to pay lower taxes anymore??). Are small companies not allowed to grow? Must we may income tax on all profit? As small practice owners we are running small businesses ourselves and this makes me personally outraged - we are small businesses first and accountants second. Why cannot a small company have growth plans? If this happens, I will truly leave the country for one that rewards enterprise rather than kicking it in the teeth constantly. They don't want us to own property, don't want us to run businesses, basically they want everybody in the UK to be a a worker drone paying employment taxes. Truly any small person who dreams of becoming rich is being told to not even think about it. Awful government(s) making the public pay for their and their rich banker friends mistakes. Am starting to think Corbyn would be more fair with smaller companies. 

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14th Mar 2016 15:12

hmrc offices
One simplification will be to publish the phone numbers of Hmrc offices and how to get hold of them by phone. In some cases they just use post codes and not even an address.

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14th Mar 2016 15:25

Giving shareholders their tax credit back

 

The look through company would at least restore the correlation between corporation tax and dividend tax.  Hard for them to justify charging a higher rate of tax on what were dividends if these are effectively abolished and treated as personal income in the company.  Otherwise, investing in shares in a business would effectively be penalised in comparison with other forms of personal income. 

Futhermore, would the government be prepared to lose out on corporation tax in small companies that are owned by pension funds and other tax exempt shareholders ...?  Well, pull the other one !

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14th Mar 2016 15:51

Mickey Parish - no, nothing at all would justify charging all of profit as personal income. It's not just about dividends and corporation tax. This is about letting small companies grow if they wish to. It's about being able to do some basic tax planning as a reward for taking the risk of starting and continuing a small business. It's about having some freedom to be able to run your business how you wish without facing the tax man at every corner - it's nothing compared to what the Google's of this world get away with. I believe the term "tax planning" might become illegal in the budget on Wednesday.

Look it's one thing tackling contractors operating inside IR35, go for it. It is ridiculous of government to punish every small limited company. The truth is the government has no money and it's easy to take it from small companies - WE (as small businesses) have no powerful unified lobbying like the big companies do.

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By kjevans
14th Mar 2016 16:08

Contractors operating inside IR35

Well, if they are really employees, the deemed employer should pay the Tax and NI (and other benefits like paid holidays) as for any other employee. Currently, any big company can make employees redundant and save a mint of money by taking on new employees, but forcing them to be Ltd Cos and knowing that when HMRC come calling, the poor deemed employees will carry the can, in return for no security, no employment rights, no pension, no sick pay and no paid holidays. If company wants short-term employees, it should take on temps on a fixed term contract and pay for them as the law requires. If it wants suppliers, be they selling products or services, fine, outsource to freelancers or consultancy firms, but don't try to treat them like employees. Then we could have some more simplification by scrapping IR35, and the penalty would be the same for "disguised" employers using self-employed or Ltd Cos as employees - so that would mean no need to incorporate just to get a job. 

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By Robbo
14th Mar 2016 16:00

Doesn't sound simple to me. The changes are never about sipmlicity but collecting more tax. If taxes were less or simpler in the first place(how about flat taxes) there would be less avoidance

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14th Mar 2016 16:19

Couldn't agree more

Gary Stevens

 

Couldn't agree more, nor express it better than you have ! 

There seems to be a majority on this thread who view the OTS plans with deep suspicion, and rightly so :  Pensions ( repeatedly ) and landlords are being fleeced in a systematic and cynical process.  Why not small and medium businesses too ? 

The only people George will never fleece are corporations and establishment investors, the sort of wealthy elite that Gordon and Tony were so mesmerised by.  The credit collapse of the noughties was not caused by small entrepreneurs, small landlords or personal pension owners, but by the Government and their friends ....

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14th Mar 2016 17:05

Not a great track record

Given the Office for Tax Simplifications' record since it was set up I have to say I can't actually believe that any of this will reduce the burden of administration.

It's much more likely that there will be a raft of new rules and allowances designed to make life harder for accountants and business owners alike

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14th Mar 2016 17:49

The Black Knight......out of Europe?

I am pretty sure Europe has not given us this nonsense.

I may be wrong so could you explain how you make the connection please?

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15th Mar 2016 10:37

It's clear "simplification"

It's clear "simplification" just means "how can we collect more tax?!" They are making small business unbearable. Government wants to tax us so much (our pensions, our  company profits, our property investments, etc) that I truly think there will be people who will just give business up. It's a sad sad day when the government openly works only for big business - they let them get away with murder when it comes to taxes. I am not talking about IR35 here or personal service companies - that is a whole separate argument. Am talking about actual real small businesses. It feels like they are the true victims of this government because it's all about bloody "fairness". Who is fair to? If Google, Starbucks and Facebook paid the taxes they should from UK operations - they would not have to raise dividend taxes, landlords not getting relief on interest costs. Was it not previous governments who told people to invest in properties? Is it not the successive governments who have failed to build enough homes? It's always the small business or landlord or pensioner or disabled person that ends up paying for others mistakes. Seriously how on Earth did Angela Knight of the OTS (she worked only lobbied big companies before I'm sure) have the audacity to talk about "look through" taxes? So they want us small businesses to effectively pay full income tax rates on all profits whilst Google pays 3% tax and HMRC calls that a success? 

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14th Mar 2016 19:07

What can one expect?

If you have a committee populated with members who have never run a business or prepared a set of accounts this sort of stupidity is the inevitable result !

Not everything in the garden is rosy but they are trying to repair the parts which are not broken and this sort of tinkering will only do harm

Thank God I am in the process of selling the practise and getting the hell out of this profession

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15th Mar 2016 13:45

So what do we do?
How do we fight back?

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17th Mar 2016 10:55

EDUCATION EDUCATION

steve 12321 wrote:
How do we fight back?

 

Influence peoples vote at the eu referendum.

Tell them their property investment has turned to shit.

That it is not worth starting a small business.

If they want benefits culture vote Europe and Corbyn that will perhaps be best. At least he will share the loaf.

Start sacking staff now - this has so undermined my faith in the future that I am beginning this process now, the nanny state can take care of everything as it wishes.

The smart money will leave the country and the EU. There willl be opportunities elswhere in the world for the more intelligent, leave the benefit claimants, government layabouts and criminals in prison UK they can build APPs to their hearts content then.

as for the OTS well if any had been near a small business that would have been good. It can't get more simple really and there is no point at all in having information that is meaningless e.g. cash accounting. " have you made a profit sir?" "no I have no money in the bank" " then you best pack in and get a proper job"

or "you are doing really well sir there's lots of cash in the bank treat yourself to a holiday and a new car" "whoops what went wrong?" "there's a government adviser that can teach you to sing a happy tune and that will fix everything" " have you tried these adult colouring books we are having great success with colours between the lines"

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17th Mar 2016 21:40

How do we fight back?

Simple!

Flood HMRC with paper and they will be forced to stop and discuss the problems with us. All it needs is someone to coordinate and accountants who can see the benefits.

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By Ammie
15th Mar 2016 14:42

AGREE WITH STEVE 12321

Why do they do it?

Maybe is it because it keeps "do gooders" busy and well paid, and relieves the pressure they are under to chase their powerful political backers and the Googles of this world from having to foot too big (and correct) a tax bill of their own.

Why should it be a problem for them, they will be gone next government and someone "blameless" will be passing the buck and the process begins all over again.

All they seem to do is stir the cauldron of "legislation" and dish up the next "spoonful". All thoughtless and ill thought out. Quite normal from the out of touch.

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15th Mar 2016 15:12

So is the answer that we cant fight back ?

 

How do we fight back was a v good question. I am not sure myself as we seem to have a very different landscape than even 5 or 10 years ago. But is there any way to make these people stop tinkering ? Even messing around with the Annual Return now just as we have got all our clients to realise that this is not the Accounts... ! 

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15th Mar 2016 16:19

Gimlet2008 Fighting back ?

Maybe forums like this are the way to fight back.  Do you think anyone in OTS or the government reads these ?

Feedback= fightback.

This is the Tripadvisor of tax matters, isn't it ?  If it isn't it should be.  Reading this thread shows that the reaction to the proposals from small businesses and accountancy professionals is 95% negative. 

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15th Mar 2016 16:37

@mickeyparish

They should have their own TV program. Can't think, Don't think. These people have no idea nor do they want to have an idea of what problems they cause. They have an idiots guide. The instructions are "get more money" the answer is "hit the soft targets". Big business tie them up in knots for years then they have to do a deal. With us they just dictate.

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15th Mar 2016 17:59

Needs..

A Think Through, at OTS, rather than such fools coming up with  the myopic concept of a Look Through!

First problem: how does a company retain profits? If profits fall to personal tax (presumably pro rata to directors shareholding), are they then expected to pay tax on their total income (which might well be much more than simply their profit share from one company) and then pay capital back into the target company?

These clowns seem to have forgotten a Limited Liability Company is an entity: of and in itself.

An entity in legal terms particularly insofar as company law, statutory law and even common law be concerned.

The whole concept of corporate tax is the company earns (hopefully) profit, pays tax on the adjusted net profit and the directors determine any distribution by way of dividends.

Removing ACT was the first dangerous step: then Brown came up with the whizzy concept of NCDs; which failed to work either. Next step up the towel folder's new dividend tax regime.

As John just posted, behind all this nonsense, "meetings in smoke filled rooms" etc, is one simple reality: successive governments (If such incompetent fools can be so dignified) have indulged in profligate fiscal mismanagement and borrowed far too much to try and balance the books: thus they need to soak the public including the little business, to try and dig themselves out of looming disaster.

 

 

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15th Mar 2016 20:30

Fight Back

I have said this a hundred times - the only way to fight back is to submit everything on paper. Swamp HMRC with paper and they will quickly start to listen or drown. The problem is that accountants cannot organise themselves. The institutes couldn't give a damn about us they are too busy enjoying being the centre of attention. What have they ever done for us?  Maybe the ICPA could get something organised? I will retire in a short time so I leave my fellow accountants (qualified and unqualified) to enjoy the fruits of their apathy

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16th Mar 2016 16:25

Well at least in this budget it didn't get any worse !

No NICs for self employed !

Corporation tax down, hooray !

Starting rate for higher rate tax up - hooray !

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17th Mar 2016 12:39

Think a bit first!

mickeyparish wrote:

No NICs for self employed !

 

Before you open the charlie champers.......

Since the State retirement Pension is based upon contributions made:

Since Class IV NICs are simply a tax upon those having the temerity to actually be self employed and enjoy no benefits accruing:

On what will self-employed state retirement pensions be based?

 

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By kjevans
17th Mar 2016 13:45

NICs for self-employed

Well, in the next round, self-employed people will have to pay Class 1 NIC and employers' NI on all drawings as well.

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17th Mar 2016 20:23

read the full budget report

I had the same thought, but the full report indicates that Class 4 NIC's will be used to produce eligibility to State Pension. no mention made of sickness benefit though.

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18th Mar 2016 09:49

My expectation is

geoffmw1 wrote:

I had the same thought, but the full report indicates that Class 4 NIC's will be used to produce eligibility to State Pension. no mention made of sickness benefit though.

 

My expectation is

 

"those not earning enough to pay class 4 can gain voluntary access to their state pension and benefits by paying class 3"

"Giving a whole new opportunity to the working class to put them in control of their finances and provide them with more choice"

Smiley face

I've not increased your pastie tax, I'm thinking about tampons (rest assured they have had a massive effect on my budget decisions) and I'm going to have a word with the greedy oil companies and their 29p a litre for fuel.

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17th Mar 2016 11:45

I used to be

good at colouring between the lines. Now I'm a lego freak. Can't seem to find anyone in government that are able to connect two or more pieces together. All I get is "have you tried the help line?" "what helpline?" I say. "You'll find it on the government webb site under digital connections". So I asked the lego man if they were going digital. He just smiled and said "You've been on the government webb site haven't you".

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17th Mar 2016 16:30

Self employed state retirement

If Michael and KJ are both right, then after working 154 years and paying both class 4 and class1 the state pension pots should be massive .....delivering probably around £140 a week ... less double taxation at source because pensioners will be considered purposeless layabouts, like landlords and bankers.

NI's are just a tax.  The link with pensions is a fairy tale.

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18th Mar 2016 10:54

Must tell you this as it

puts things topsy turvy. Client puts me on to someone that has recieved massive assessments (this was about 10 years ago) I appealed visited future client. Turns out 64 year old, never put in a tax return, inherited family home and business growing and selling turf. Earning just enough to feed the 2 dogs and 3 cats. Phoned the tax inspector dealing with the case to discuss way forward. He was happy to see the last 3 years statement of profit. This done, no tax liability, everything hunky dory. (now - yes I did get paid) Client retires but as no money in pot no pension. Social services step in and the upshot was that the family got more money than they would have done getting a pension. That doesn't seem right to me. Son now running the business (all legal) but earnings too low to put anything in the pot. I just wonder how many more like this who just don't get affected by anything.

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